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> Asking to leave WhatsApp is like cancelling your contract with your ISP and going offline just because you don't like the company. If I choose to stop using

> Asking to leave WhatsApp is like cancelling your contract with your ISP and going offline just because you don't like the company. If I choose to stop using my ISP, I have no need to "go offline". I can simply switch ISPs and I still get the exact same internet. This is why we must not fall for this "critical social infrastructure" trap. No one company deserves our business. We can and should go elsewhere. Messaging should be like the internet. If I don't like my messaging provider, I should be able to switch and still message everybody. Ideally, I would be able to bring my identifier with me. Luckily, SMS already provides this. I therefore recommend old-fashioned SMS/MMS for messaging. If you want something more "modern", I would recommend Matrix, as it is the only "modern" messaging system that wants to allow people to switch providers while still messaging the same people.

ColinWright 6y ago
> Matrix ... the only "modern" messaging system that wants to allow people to switch providers while still messaging the same people. But does it really do so in practice? If I'm using Element/Matrix and a colleague is using WhatsApp, or Signal, or Telegram, or Briar. Can they reliably send me messages? Can I reliably send them messages? I've been told it's possible, but more than one person I know has tried and failed. Is it common? Reliable? Possible? Or theoretical, and unachievable in practice? Have you done it?
- blendergeek 6y ago
  > But does it really do so in practice? If I'm using Element/Matrix and a colleague is using WhatsApp, or Signal, or Telegram, or Briar. Can they reliably send me messages? Can I reliably send them messages? Matrix is not the provider. Matrix is the protocol/idea. Element is both an app and a service. What is common, reliable, and achievable in practice: I decide I no longer like New Vector (who run the matrix.org home server). I switch to Purism's matrix server. I no longer am doing business with New Vector, yet I can still chat with everybody that is using New Vector's matrix service.
  - ColinWright 6y ago
    But you're still only talking about apps that run on top of Matrix ... your initial comment made it sound like it was possible to interact with people on WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, etc. I know that Matrix isn't the provider, that's why I mentioned Element/Matrix. I know that you can communicate between services that are all running on top of Matrix. That's why I specifically asked about other services. As I say, your comment seemed to imply it was possible, but most of the information I have suggests it isn't.
    - blendergeek 6y ago
      > As I say, your comment seemed to imply it was possible, After re-reading my comment, I can see how one would think that. I apologize for the confusion. I was actually trying to draw a distinction be between messaging systems that are provider agnostic and those that aren't. SMS and Matrix both allow multiple competing providers to interoperate. WhatsApp does not. That is why, I believe that we must not consider Whatsapp "critical infrastructure". No one company should be "critical".
    - thekyle 6y ago
      Matrix does have a feature called Bridges which would allow you to talk to someone on WhatsApp, Telegram, iMessage, etc. through your Matrix client. However, I suspect that they have some reliability issues. https://matrix.org/bridges/ https://matrix.org/bridges/
      - ColinWright 6y ago
        > I suspect that they have some reliability issues. I've heard that they are sufficiently unreliable as to be unusable, that was was some time ago, and things may have changed.
        abstract_put 6y ago
        Anecdote: I've been running my own Matrix bridges for WhatsApp and Signal (for my personal accounts) and they've been nothing but rock solid. Caveat being that with the pandemic I've exclusively used them at home, they're hosted on private infrastructure. It was a bit of a thing to set up, not being familiar with Matrix at all before, but now it's a docker-compose file. To be clear, I send messages from my Matrix client to my Matrix server, software running on that server bridges it to WhatsApp/Signal as appropriate, same for incoming messages. Photos work as well. I think WhatsApp relies on a data connection to your phone, and the bridge will disconnect whenever that drops. Having set this all up, I'm a pretty big convert to Matrix - just need to get the world on board. I'd love to have an SMS bridge as well, see how far I can go.
baq 6y ago
> I can simply switch ISPs and I still get the exact same internet. This is why we must not fall for this "critical social infrastructure" trap. No one company deserves our business. We can and should go elsewhere. I don't think you realize it's basically a privilege to be able to change your ISP. I have two options and have switched last month - it took three months of figuring out who should fix broken fiber (look at me, I have FTTH, another privilege). so if you say you can 'simply switch' your ISP, you're in a lucky place.
- blendergeek 6y ago
  But, when I do switch ISPs I still get the exact same internet. When I switch phone carriers, I can still use SMS to message anybody who uses SMS. When I switch from WhatsApp to GroupMe, I have an entirely different set of conversations. They are totally separate systems. Also, if you were willing to switch to a satellite or LTE carrier, would you be able to switch? If you did switch, you still have "the internet".

ColinWright 6y ago

> Matrix ... the only "modern" messaging system that wants to allow people to switch providers while still messaging the same people. But does it really do so in practice? If I'm using Element/Matrix and a colleague is using WhatsApp, or Signal, or Telegram, or Briar. Can they reliably send me messages? Can I reliably send them messages? I've been told it's possible, but more than one person I know has tried and failed. Is it common? Reliable? Possible? Or theoretical, and unachievable in practice? Have you done it?

blendergeek 6y ago
> But does it really do so in practice? If I'm using Element/Matrix and a colleague is using WhatsApp, or Signal, or Telegram, or Briar. Can they reliably send me messages? Can I reliably send them messages? Matrix is not the provider. Matrix is the protocol/idea. Element is both an app and a service. What is common, reliable, and achievable in practice: I decide I no longer like New Vector (who run the matrix.org home server). I switch to Purism's matrix server. I no longer am doing business with New Vector, yet I can still chat with everybody that is using New Vector's matrix service.
- ColinWright 6y ago
  But you're still only talking about apps that run on top of Matrix ... your initial comment made it sound like it was possible to interact with people on WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, etc. I know that Matrix isn't the provider, that's why I mentioned Element/Matrix. I know that you can communicate between services that are all running on top of Matrix. That's why I specifically asked about other services. As I say, your comment seemed to imply it was possible, but most of the information I have suggests it isn't.
  - blendergeek 6y ago
    > As I say, your comment seemed to imply it was possible, After re-reading my comment, I can see how one would think that. I apologize for the confusion. I was actually trying to draw a distinction be between messaging systems that are provider agnostic and those that aren't. SMS and Matrix both allow multiple competing providers to interoperate. WhatsApp does not. That is why, I believe that we must not consider Whatsapp "critical infrastructure". No one company should be "critical".
  - thekyle 6y ago
    Matrix does have a feature called Bridges which would allow you to talk to someone on WhatsApp, Telegram, iMessage, etc. through your Matrix client. However, I suspect that they have some reliability issues. https://matrix.org/bridges/ https://matrix.org/bridges/
    - ColinWright 6y ago
      > I suspect that they have some reliability issues. I've heard that they are sufficiently unreliable as to be unusable, that was was some time ago, and things may have changed.
      - abstract_put 6y ago
        Anecdote: I've been running my own Matrix bridges for WhatsApp and Signal (for my personal accounts) and they've been nothing but rock solid. Caveat being that with the pandemic I've exclusively used them at home, they're hosted on private infrastructure. It was a bit of a thing to set up, not being familiar with Matrix at all before, but now it's a docker-compose file. To be clear, I send messages from my Matrix client to my Matrix server, software running on that server bridges it to WhatsApp/Signal as appropriate, same for incoming messages. Photos work as well. I think WhatsApp relies on a data connection to your phone, and the bridge will disconnect whenever that drops. Having set this all up, I'm a pretty big convert to Matrix - just need to get the world on board. I'd love to have an SMS bridge as well, see how far I can go.

baq 6y ago

> I can simply switch ISPs and I still get the exact same internet. This is why we must not fall for this "critical social infrastructure" trap. No one company deserves our business. We can and should go elsewhere. I don't think you realize it's basically a privilege to be able to change your ISP. I have two options and have switched last month - it took three months of figuring out who should fix broken fiber (look at me, I have FTTH, another privilege). so if you say you can 'simply switch' your ISP, you're in a lucky place.

blendergeek 6y ago
But, when I do switch ISPs I still get the exact same internet. When I switch phone carriers, I can still use SMS to message anybody who uses SMS. When I switch from WhatsApp to GroupMe, I have an entirely different set of conversations. They are totally separate systems. Also, if you were willing to switch to a satellite or LTE carrier, would you be able to switch? If you did switch, you still have "the internet".