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You're misunderstanding. What he should have done was strongly condemn the violence and call for the people to go home immediately and peacefully. And nothing

by jmull 6y ago

You're misunderstanding. What he should have done was strongly condemn the violence and call for the people to go home immediately and peacefully. And nothing else. With no softening weasel words. He would be able to keep believing his claims of election fraud uninterrupted. And continue to pursuing them, just after the violent insurrection was diffused, not during it. It's important to note that the insurrection was any least partially incited by his claims of election fraud, so repeating them in that context was extremely dangerous.

throwawaysea 6y ago
Here are the definitions of the words 'incite' and 'violence' https://www.dictionary.com/browse/inciting https://www.dictionary.com/browse/inciting to stir, encourage, or urge on; stimulate or prompt to action https://www.dictionary.com/browse/violence https://www.dictionary.com/browse/violence an unjust or unwarranted exertion of force or power, as against rights or laws I agree he should have strongly condemned those actions and asked them to leave immediately. But I also don't see any evidence that he incited violence. Alleging election fraud, or encouraging people to protest are not the same as inciting violence. I'm open to evidence of Trump inciting violence, but thus far no one has been able to provide it.
- jmull 6y ago
  I think you should watch the speeches given at the event immediately prior to the rioters going to the capitol building and violently seizing it, including Trump's. It's the nature of the things that you can always argue about whether a particular speech rises to the level of incitement. E.g., the words like "stir", "encourage", and "stimulate" from the definition are not black-and-white terms. However, the actual sequence of events are a pretty strong argument for incitement. There's a simple and easy to follow implication of cause and effect here. Also, remember, we're talking about his video after the violence broke out. If he didn't understand that his claims of election fraud before the riot would lead the riot, he must certainly have understood it during the riot.
  - throwawaysea 6y ago
    Thanks for the response. For me, that's not strong enough a case to say that Trump's social media posts should be censored or blocked. I simply don't see it as incitement of violence. His claims of fraud are misleading for sure, but if the standard is around "violence" specifically, I feel that blame cannot be laid at his feet in a provable manner - because this is a highly political, highly emotional situation, I am looking for evidence that would almost meet a legal standard, like beyond a reasonable doubt (https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Beyond+a+Reasonable+Doubt https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Beyond+a+Reas...). I also think the actions taken by tech companies here reflects a double-standard. For example, why isn't AOC being blocked for supporting rioting? Why weren't Democrats called out for attacks on federal property in Portland, Seattle, and other cities? Look at https://thefederalist.com/2021/01/07/aocs-comms-director-asks-twitter-to-ban-users-from-citing-aocs-support-for-violent-riots/ https://thefederalist.com/2021/01/07/aocs-comms-director-ask... for an exploration of this. To me, it just looks like big tech companies picking winners and losers in an ongoing political and cultural war, and are reacting to societal or political pressures in taking action rather than acting in any principled manner.
    - leepowers 6y ago
      It's a false equivalence. Here's the AOC quote being referenced: > "The whole point of protesting is to make ppl uncomfortable. Activists take that discomfort w/ the status quo & advocate for concrete policy changes. Popular support often starts small & grows. To folks who complain protest demands make others uncomfortable… that’s the point." Where in this statement is there any incitement for rioting or violence? Now let's take a look at Trump's actions on Wednesday[1]: > "You don't concede when there's theft involved. Our country has had enough and we will not take it any more" > "And we fight. We fight like hell and if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore." This is how Trump described the rioters: > "These are the things that happen when a sacred landslide election victory is so unceremoniously & viciously stripped away from great patriots who have been badly & unfairly treated for so long." Contrast this with Pence's response: > "This attack on our Capitol will not be tolerated and those involved will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law" [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/how-trump-in-final-weeks-incited-his-followers-to-storm-the-capitol-2021-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/how-trump-in-final-weeks-inc...

by jmull 6y ago

throwawaysea 6y ago

Here are the definitions of the words 'incite' and 'violence' https://www.dictionary.com/browse/inciting https://www.dictionary.com/browse/inciting to stir, encourage, or urge on; stimulate or prompt to action https://www.dictionary.com/browse/violence https://www.dictionary.com/browse/violence an unjust or unwarranted exertion of force or power, as against rights or laws I agree he should have strongly condemned those actions and asked them to leave immediately. But I also don't see any evidence that he incited violence. Alleging election fraud, or encouraging people to protest are not the same as inciting violence. I'm open to evidence of Trump inciting violence, but thus far no one has been able to provide it.

jmull 6y ago
I think you should watch the speeches given at the event immediately prior to the rioters going to the capitol building and violently seizing it, including Trump's. It's the nature of the things that you can always argue about whether a particular speech rises to the level of incitement. E.g., the words like "stir", "encourage", and "stimulate" from the definition are not black-and-white terms. However, the actual sequence of events are a pretty strong argument for incitement. There's a simple and easy to follow implication of cause and effect here. Also, remember, we're talking about his video after the violence broke out. If he didn't understand that his claims of election fraud before the riot would lead the riot, he must certainly have understood it during the riot.
- throwawaysea 6y ago
  Thanks for the response. For me, that's not strong enough a case to say that Trump's social media posts should be censored or blocked. I simply don't see it as incitement of violence. His claims of fraud are misleading for sure, but if the standard is around "violence" specifically, I feel that blame cannot be laid at his feet in a provable manner - because this is a highly political, highly emotional situation, I am looking for evidence that would almost meet a legal standard, like beyond a reasonable doubt (https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Beyond+a+Reasonable+Doubt https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Beyond+a+Reas...). I also think the actions taken by tech companies here reflects a double-standard. For example, why isn't AOC being blocked for supporting rioting? Why weren't Democrats called out for attacks on federal property in Portland, Seattle, and other cities? Look at https://thefederalist.com/2021/01/07/aocs-comms-director-asks-twitter-to-ban-users-from-citing-aocs-support-for-violent-riots/ https://thefederalist.com/2021/01/07/aocs-comms-director-ask... for an exploration of this. To me, it just looks like big tech companies picking winners and losers in an ongoing political and cultural war, and are reacting to societal or political pressures in taking action rather than acting in any principled manner.
  - leepowers 6y ago
    It's a false equivalence. Here's the AOC quote being referenced: > "The whole point of protesting is to make ppl uncomfortable. Activists take that discomfort w/ the status quo & advocate for concrete policy changes. Popular support often starts small & grows. To folks who complain protest demands make others uncomfortable… that’s the point." Where in this statement is there any incitement for rioting or violence? Now let's take a look at Trump's actions on Wednesday[1]: > "You don't concede when there's theft involved. Our country has had enough and we will not take it any more" > "And we fight. We fight like hell and if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore." This is how Trump described the rioters: > "These are the things that happen when a sacred landslide election victory is so unceremoniously & viciously stripped away from great patriots who have been badly & unfairly treated for so long." Contrast this with Pence's response: > "This attack on our Capitol will not be tolerated and those involved will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law" [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/how-trump-in-final-weeks-incited-his-followers-to-storm-the-capitol-2021-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/how-trump-in-final-weeks-inc...