5 ms·

This is interesting, however, if I had covid and knew I was going to soon be on a ventilator. I'd much rather overdose on morphine or kill myself than rely on

This is interesting, however, if I had covid and knew I was going to soon be on a ventilator. I'd much rather overdose on morphine or kill myself than rely on a raspberry pi based ventilator.

Aissen 6y ago
Yeah, the title is misguided, it is not the whole story : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25671318 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25671318 (And as much as I hate the Pi's reliability, I'd still take that bet if it was indeed relying on a Pi).
baptistejamin 6y ago
Hello! I work on this project. Don't worry, the breathing system does not rely on the Rasberry at all. We use an electronic board that was made on purpose by a Medical company and relies on STM32 hardware. This board sends telemetry to the Rasberry PI and we have a Rust based interface that shows charts and some controls. If the Raspberry fails, the Firmware still run fine, and you can still change the settings on the machine using physical buttons and a LCD screen that is directly connected to the firmware
- koolk3ychain 6y ago
  A good friend of mine had the experience of nearly dying after a mobile ventilator in an ambulance failed after he was involved in a serious car accident. It was later found that the ambulance operator was using devices that hadn't been cleared by the FDA yet. Although they came from a Turkish "medical device" company, they were not cleared for use in the US and left my friend with brain damage and PTSD. I don't care that the hardware involved in your project was "made be a medical company", it's not hardened tech. Also, rust is by no means hardened - look into "provably complete" languages if you want to see what a true "hardened" lang is. There's a reason why medical devices and serious "hardened" tech (military or otherwise) is validated and cost tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. It's because teams of engineers spent weeks or years coming up with every possible problem or failure pattern. To be frank, I'd rather pay a nurse $50k in cash to pump a vent bag next to me than rely on your "project".
  - mbreese 6y ago
    While I don't disagree with your overall sentiment (I can't imagine relying on a RPi powered device -- even if it is just a display -- for clinical use), I think you're overthinking the motivation here... > To be frank, I'd rather pay a nurse $50k in cash to pump a vent bag next to me than rely on your "project". From what I've read (admittedly not much) -- this project isn't trying to disrupt the ventilator industry or make a bunch of sales. It isn't designed to give you a choice of a ventilator to remove a nurse. It's for situations when you don't have another choice... for when a hospital has run out of proper ventilators or there isn't a nurse available. This is not a first-choice device (even if it could be adapted to that in the future).
  - jeroenhd 6y ago
    I agree that this project can be incredibly dangerous if people try to sell them in countries with well-developed, well-tested systems of healthcare. However, billions of people don't have the luxury of tested and verified medical devices. The price of a single machine might be close to the monthly budget of the entire hospital. In those cases, any small hacks are welcome if they can help save a patient's life. A crappy, half-decent ventilator is way better than no ventilator at all. Until rich countries start buying hospital devices for poor countries en masse, providing cheap alternatives to proper medical devices can save lives. The company behind this seems to be French and if it ever gets used in France without certification then they've probably got a huge lawsuit and potential criminal liability on their hands. According to the project's website, they are trying to comply with European medical regulation (if Google translate got that right) and their Github mentions they're working with regulators. This isn't a hobby project by a bunch of bored students, the project seems to be a proper attempt at making capable medical devices that can be extended upon without IP problems.
  - kbelder 6y ago
    To be frank, more people would be saved with fallible yet cheap medical hardware than 'proven correct' hardware that costs $100,000 plus.
  - pp-ir 6y ago
    Sorry for your friend. Problem with vent bag is that you cannot maintain a positive expiratory pressure (around 10mmHg of pressure during the expiration to prevent lung to collapse alveoli). For Covid-19, all the projects based on mechanized vent bag where useless because of the type of disease. There are several companies behind the project. The company who makes the electronics is Tronico (https://www.tronico-alcen.com/en/markets/medical https://www.tronico-alcen.com/en/markets/medical). It has all the medical certifications needed. We are currently going on with ANSM certification (equivalent of US FDA). It is a long 2 years way, with lots of papers and tests... If it is approved, sure it can save life everywhere in the world. If it is not, it was a project where we learned a lot. By the way, ambulance ventilators are harder to develop and to approve. Hardware must resist huge shocks and accelerations. As said previously, the Rpi part and the software is not critical at all, it is here to fill a gap between the minimal UX and the expected UX. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25671617 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25671617 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25671318 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25671318.
- intricatedetail 6y ago
  There is many STM32 cpus, which ones are designed for use in life support applications?
exyi 6y ago
You'd be fine, most patients on ventilators are AFAIK heavily sedated anyway. So don't overdose yourself, please
- koolk3ychain 6y ago
  When hospitals reach critical levels of occupancy or patients that are "near death" the option of a terminal morphine drip is more common than you'd think. However, I feel it's important to mention that anyone who wants decent medical care while alive should never arrange a DNR. There's actually clinical evidence to suggest that a DNR can actually markedly lower your level of care in a hospital or ICU [0] 0 - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10448716/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10448716/
bird_monster 6y ago
That's fair for you individually. For a lot of people, "I'd rather try to live than die" is a much more realistic viewpoint.
selfhoster11 6y ago
If there was nothing else available, I'd surely pick a chance of survival while connected to a Pi-based ventilator than zero chance of survival.

This is interesting, however, if I had covid and knew I was going to soon be on a ventilator. I'd much rather overdose on morphine or kill myself than rely on a raspberry pi based ventilator.

Aissen 6y ago

Yeah, the title is misguided, it is not the whole story : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25671318 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25671318 (And as much as I hate the Pi's reliability, I'd still take that bet if it was indeed relying on a Pi).

baptistejamin 6y ago

Hello! I work on this project. Don't worry, the breathing system does not rely on the Rasberry at all. We use an electronic board that was made on purpose by a Medical company and relies on STM32 hardware. This board sends telemetry to the Rasberry PI and we have a Rust based interface that shows charts and some controls. If the Raspberry fails, the Firmware still run fine, and you can still change the settings on the machine using physical buttons and a LCD screen that is directly connected to the firmware

koolk3ychain 6y ago
A good friend of mine had the experience of nearly dying after a mobile ventilator in an ambulance failed after he was involved in a serious car accident. It was later found that the ambulance operator was using devices that hadn't been cleared by the FDA yet. Although they came from a Turkish "medical device" company, they were not cleared for use in the US and left my friend with brain damage and PTSD. I don't care that the hardware involved in your project was "made be a medical company", it's not hardened tech. Also, rust is by no means hardened - look into "provably complete" languages if you want to see what a true "hardened" lang is. There's a reason why medical devices and serious "hardened" tech (military or otherwise) is validated and cost tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. It's because teams of engineers spent weeks or years coming up with every possible problem or failure pattern. To be frank, I'd rather pay a nurse $50k in cash to pump a vent bag next to me than rely on your "project".
- mbreese 6y ago
  While I don't disagree with your overall sentiment (I can't imagine relying on a RPi powered device -- even if it is just a display -- for clinical use), I think you're overthinking the motivation here... > To be frank, I'd rather pay a nurse $50k in cash to pump a vent bag next to me than rely on your "project". From what I've read (admittedly not much) -- this project isn't trying to disrupt the ventilator industry or make a bunch of sales. It isn't designed to give you a choice of a ventilator to remove a nurse. It's for situations when you don't have another choice... for when a hospital has run out of proper ventilators or there isn't a nurse available. This is not a first-choice device (even if it could be adapted to that in the future).
- jeroenhd 6y ago
  I agree that this project can be incredibly dangerous if people try to sell them in countries with well-developed, well-tested systems of healthcare. However, billions of people don't have the luxury of tested and verified medical devices. The price of a single machine might be close to the monthly budget of the entire hospital. In those cases, any small hacks are welcome if they can help save a patient's life. A crappy, half-decent ventilator is way better than no ventilator at all. Until rich countries start buying hospital devices for poor countries en masse, providing cheap alternatives to proper medical devices can save lives. The company behind this seems to be French and if it ever gets used in France without certification then they've probably got a huge lawsuit and potential criminal liability on their hands. According to the project's website, they are trying to comply with European medical regulation (if Google translate got that right) and their Github mentions they're working with regulators. This isn't a hobby project by a bunch of bored students, the project seems to be a proper attempt at making capable medical devices that can be extended upon without IP problems.
- kbelder 6y ago
  To be frank, more people would be saved with fallible yet cheap medical hardware than 'proven correct' hardware that costs $100,000 plus.
- pp-ir 6y ago
  Sorry for your friend. Problem with vent bag is that you cannot maintain a positive expiratory pressure (around 10mmHg of pressure during the expiration to prevent lung to collapse alveoli). For Covid-19, all the projects based on mechanized vent bag where useless because of the type of disease. There are several companies behind the project. The company who makes the electronics is Tronico (https://www.tronico-alcen.com/en/markets/medical https://www.tronico-alcen.com/en/markets/medical). It has all the medical certifications needed. We are currently going on with ANSM certification (equivalent of US FDA). It is a long 2 years way, with lots of papers and tests... If it is approved, sure it can save life everywhere in the world. If it is not, it was a project where we learned a lot. By the way, ambulance ventilators are harder to develop and to approve. Hardware must resist huge shocks and accelerations. As said previously, the Rpi part and the software is not critical at all, it is here to fill a gap between the minimal UX and the expected UX. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25671617 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25671617 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25671318 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25671318.
intricatedetail 6y ago
There is many STM32 cpus, which ones are designed for use in life support applications?

exyi 6y ago

You'd be fine, most patients on ventilators are AFAIK heavily sedated anyway. So don't overdose yourself, please

koolk3ychain 6y ago
When hospitals reach critical levels of occupancy or patients that are "near death" the option of a terminal morphine drip is more common than you'd think. However, I feel it's important to mention that anyone who wants decent medical care while alive should never arrange a DNR. There's actually clinical evidence to suggest that a DNR can actually markedly lower your level of care in a hospital or ICU [0] 0 - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10448716/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10448716/

bird_monster 6y ago

That's fair for you individually. For a lot of people, "I'd rather try to live than die" is a much more realistic viewpoint.

selfhoster11 6y ago

If there was nothing else available, I'd surely pick a chance of survival while connected to a Pi-based ventilator than zero chance of survival.