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> but perhaps they didn't because of the symbolism of the location. I think there were a number of things going on, but one of the not to be discounted is tha

> but perhaps they didn't because of the symbolism of the location. I think there were a number of things going on, but one of the not to be discounted is that individual police officers probably had a lot of sympathy for the protestors. There are pictures of police officers taking selfies with protestors etc. They saw each other as sharing similar politics and backgrounds. Very different from the individual police officers attitudes toward Black Lives Matter protests. Note I am not saying it was some kind of conspiracy with orders from abovve, I am saying individual police sympathies in aggregate led to much increased tolerance. In many cases in the USA the cops are quite happy to create puddles of blood, for better or worse (and it's usually worse). Note I am also not saying they "should" have created puddles of blood here.

bjtitus 6y ago
I completely agree with this take. 85% of police officers voted for Tump in 2016. Just from personal experience, I've noticed a growing animosity from police pushing back on the reform movements happening across the country. I've heard officers refusing to be involved in psychiatric calls due to changes in use of force laws which could hold them personally accountable. Instead of working to find a legal solution, their attitude seems to be one of revenge and their actions a punitive measure on the electorate and government which chose to enact those laws. There is a culture of us vs. them that is being focused towards politicians and reformists. I hope it's not a pervasive one.
- giarc 6y ago
  >85% of police officers voted for Tump in 2016. That's likely a national statistic. Remember, these are police in DC, a very liberal area.
  - robk 6y ago
    On police salary they live in Calvert or Charles or Fauquier Counties which are still oases of red.
  - jorblumesea 6y ago
    Very few police officers actually live in the area they work in. Most live far outside the city in the suburbs or more red areas. Either due to cost of living or politics. This often contributes to the "us vs them" divide because the people policing neighborhoods are often from different areas, ethnicity, incomes and political leanings.
    - cozzyd 6y ago
      Even in places like Chicago where there is a residency requirement, most officers tend to live in "cop and firemen" neighborhoods on the outskirts of the city. This has some predictable consequences: https://blockclubchicago.org/2018/12/20/police-heavy-wards-get-the-least-parking-tickets-out-of-any-in-chicago-data-shows/ https://blockclubchicago.org/2018/12/20/police-heavy-wards-g...
  - wolrah 6y ago
    > That's likely a national statistic. Remember, these are police in DC, a very liberal area. Still cops. I personally know two DC area cops who are quite red. Remember, police organizations have been pushing the idea that anyone who protests police brutality is anti-cop and the right wing have more or less 100% stood by them or encouraged them.
- leereeves 6y ago
  It's not surprising that police don't side with Democrats who vilify them for defending themselves, and refuse to respond to psychiatric calls that might make them a target. Consider the killing of Walter Wallace, one of the "psychiatric incidents" you're talking about: > Several 9-1-1 calls were made by Wallace's sister, brother, and neighbor, telling dispatchers that Wallace was assaulting his parents > The two officers arrived in the area to respond to a domestic dispute. When they arrived, Wallace walked out of his house carrying a knife. The two officers backed away while telling him to drop the knife, and as Wallace walked in their direction, each officer fired several rounds at Wallace, hitting him in the shoulder and chest. He later died from his wounds in the hospital. Wallace's family stated that Wallace was having a mental health crisis. > Protests and demonstrations against police brutality and institutional racism in response to Wallace's killing took place across Philadelphia throughout late October. > The then-presidential nominee Joe Biden and his running mate Kamala Harris published a joint statement saying, "Our hearts are broken for the family of Walter Wallace Jr... We cannot accept that in this country a mental health crisis ends in death."[34] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Walter_Wallace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Walter_Wallace Body cam video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl1QBL8TijI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl1QBL8TijI Edit: And it really says something about our ability to discuss facts on Hacker News when quotes from Wikipedia and a body cam video are downvoted to invisibility.
  - glial 6y ago
    I’m sorry, but can you really not think of any other way to subdue somebody with a knife than shoot them?
    - leereeves 6y ago
      Never having been in a knife fight, I'm not going to speculate or second guess people who put their lives on the line. What's your expertise in this area?
      - glial 6y ago
        No expertise, but just offhand one could use beanbags, rubber bullets, tear gas, pepper spray, tranquilizers, etc - Is there a good reason that these are not options? Why jump straight to shooting someone multiple times? Maybe I’m just not understanding something.
- tomatotomato37 6y ago
  It does beg the question; if your the leader of a political faction, who is currently faced off against another faction which has spent the last something years courting the prime authority figures in the region, what's the next tactical step after that faction starts starting shit and those authority figures who are tasked with stopping said shit refuse to act? Is the only solution to quickly bootstrap your own brand of authority figures and hope yours is bigger than theirs?
- BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
  > 85% of police officers voted for Tump in 2016. Is there a source for this claim? All I could find was https://www.policemag.com/342098/the-2016-police-presidential-poll https://www.policemag.com/342098/the-2016-police-presidentia... It says that 84% of responding email-registered readers of POLICE MAGAZINE indicated that that they would vote for Trump. That's not the same as what you said at all. This magazine "emailed 59,238 readers". There are more than 10x that many full-time police officers in the US. Can one conclude that the responding fraction of this tiny-circulation magazine's readership is statistically representative of all police officers in the country?
psychometry 6y ago
Yes, these rioters would have been dealt with quite quickly, and violently, had they not been white right-wingers. The nation's largest police organization (FoP) endorsed Trump as did most of the police unions around the country. I can think of no better argument for systemically rebuilding law enforcement across the country than this. The system is rotten to its core and it's because of the people in it.
- briandear 6y ago
  That just isn’t true. The “Autonomous Zones” lasted for weeks. Left wing protestors and rioters got away with literal murder, violence, looting. How many people did the protestors at the capital harm? How much property was actually damaged? There are hundreds or more small businesses that were looted or burned to the ground during the left wing protests. How many small businesses or individuals were harmed by the Capitol protestors? There was a unarmed protestor that was shot and killed by a Capitol cop. Where is the outrage over an unarmed woman getting shot? Perhaps because she is a white Trump supporter she doesn’t matter as much as a black felon suspect getting shot by cops? The hypocrisy is vivid but not surprising. Left wing riots that destroy and loot small businesses that have nothing to do with the grievances being protested: “peaceful protest” supported by AOC and other Democrat politicians. Trump protestors occupying the halls of the very institution they are protesting? Somehow they are seditious and horrible. If these Capitol protesters were leftists protesting a Trump victory, the media and most people here would be singing a different tune. And what’s frustrating to many people is how even a discussion of election fraud gets flagged and buried. Especially in a place like Hacker News. Has anyone actually looked at the statistical anomolies from the election? We’ve talked about voter machine integrity years ago on HN, but those concerns disappeared all the sudden. Concerns about electronic voting seem to evaporate when it benefits a candidate of ideological choice. It’s weird. It’s like the entire HN community has no technical curiosity about any part of the clearly “interesting” election. It really feels conspiratorial how all facets of the tech industry have identically but independently have worked to defeat a political candidate. So yes, I get the protests. When we’re being gaslit on “fair and secure” elections, but with our own eyes we see the appearance of exactly the opposite. People are going to get mad. One case in point: In Atlanta, during the presidential election night. All the media reported that counting was suspended for a “water pipe break” at State Farm Arena. A pipe break that never happened. Not a single work order. No repair. No maintenance record. Not a photo. Nothing. Zero evidence. Then all of the critical battlegrounds coincidentally stop counting votes at the same times? Florida didn’t stop. Neither did Texas. Or New York State. But the critical battlegrounds? Every one of them stopped the counts. Observers being kicked out. Observers being told to go home yet the counting continued. Trucks arriving in the middle of the night with extra votes.. This isn’t made up. This is all real. Was is fraud? Perhaps not. But are the coincidences that all happen to favor Biden compelling? Definitely. And yet even discussing these weird anomalies that all favor Biden can get you in Facebook jail, suspended from Twitter, kicked off of YouTube.. downvoted on Hacker News. Even debating or questioning the Coronavirus orthodoxy can get you censored. The world is fucked up and tech companies are a big part of the problem. I don’t think I have ever been more ashamed to be in this industry.
runarberg 6y ago
> Note I am not saying it was some kind of conspiracy with orders from above. There is no conspiracy necessary. A single officer can simply allocate too few officers to guard the place. And in fact that is what happened and is the reason the national guards weren’t there prepared and stopped it before it happened. No conspiracy, just a chain of sympathetic command.

bjtitus 6y ago

I completely agree with this take. 85% of police officers voted for Tump in 2016. Just from personal experience, I've noticed a growing animosity from police pushing back on the reform movements happening across the country. I've heard officers refusing to be involved in psychiatric calls due to changes in use of force laws which could hold them personally accountable. Instead of working to find a legal solution, their attitude seems to be one of revenge and their actions a punitive measure on the electorate and government which chose to enact those laws. There is a culture of us vs. them that is being focused towards politicians and reformists. I hope it's not a pervasive one.

giarc 6y ago
>85% of police officers voted for Tump in 2016. That's likely a national statistic. Remember, these are police in DC, a very liberal area.
- robk 6y ago
  On police salary they live in Calvert or Charles or Fauquier Counties which are still oases of red.
- jorblumesea 6y ago
  Very few police officers actually live in the area they work in. Most live far outside the city in the suburbs or more red areas. Either due to cost of living or politics. This often contributes to the "us vs them" divide because the people policing neighborhoods are often from different areas, ethnicity, incomes and political leanings.
  - cozzyd 6y ago
    Even in places like Chicago where there is a residency requirement, most officers tend to live in "cop and firemen" neighborhoods on the outskirts of the city. This has some predictable consequences: https://blockclubchicago.org/2018/12/20/police-heavy-wards-get-the-least-parking-tickets-out-of-any-in-chicago-data-shows/ https://blockclubchicago.org/2018/12/20/police-heavy-wards-g...
- wolrah 6y ago
  > That's likely a national statistic. Remember, these are police in DC, a very liberal area. Still cops. I personally know two DC area cops who are quite red. Remember, police organizations have been pushing the idea that anyone who protests police brutality is anti-cop and the right wing have more or less 100% stood by them or encouraged them.
leereeves 6y ago
It's not surprising that police don't side with Democrats who vilify them for defending themselves, and refuse to respond to psychiatric calls that might make them a target. Consider the killing of Walter Wallace, one of the "psychiatric incidents" you're talking about: > Several 9-1-1 calls were made by Wallace's sister, brother, and neighbor, telling dispatchers that Wallace was assaulting his parents > The two officers arrived in the area to respond to a domestic dispute. When they arrived, Wallace walked out of his house carrying a knife. The two officers backed away while telling him to drop the knife, and as Wallace walked in their direction, each officer fired several rounds at Wallace, hitting him in the shoulder and chest. He later died from his wounds in the hospital. Wallace's family stated that Wallace was having a mental health crisis. > Protests and demonstrations against police brutality and institutional racism in response to Wallace's killing took place across Philadelphia throughout late October. > The then-presidential nominee Joe Biden and his running mate Kamala Harris published a joint statement saying, "Our hearts are broken for the family of Walter Wallace Jr... We cannot accept that in this country a mental health crisis ends in death."[34] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Walter_Wallace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Walter_Wallace Body cam video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl1QBL8TijI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl1QBL8TijI Edit: And it really says something about our ability to discuss facts on Hacker News when quotes from Wikipedia and a body cam video are downvoted to invisibility.
- glial 6y ago
  I’m sorry, but can you really not think of any other way to subdue somebody with a knife than shoot them?
  - leereeves 6y ago
    Never having been in a knife fight, I'm not going to speculate or second guess people who put their lives on the line. What's your expertise in this area?
    - glial 6y ago
      No expertise, but just offhand one could use beanbags, rubber bullets, tear gas, pepper spray, tranquilizers, etc - Is there a good reason that these are not options? Why jump straight to shooting someone multiple times? Maybe I’m just not understanding something.
tomatotomato37 6y ago
It does beg the question; if your the leader of a political faction, who is currently faced off against another faction which has spent the last something years courting the prime authority figures in the region, what's the next tactical step after that faction starts starting shit and those authority figures who are tasked with stopping said shit refuse to act? Is the only solution to quickly bootstrap your own brand of authority figures and hope yours is bigger than theirs?
BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
> 85% of police officers voted for Tump in 2016. Is there a source for this claim? All I could find was https://www.policemag.com/342098/the-2016-police-presidential-poll https://www.policemag.com/342098/the-2016-police-presidentia... It says that 84% of responding email-registered readers of POLICE MAGAZINE indicated that that they would vote for Trump. That's not the same as what you said at all. This magazine "emailed 59,238 readers". There are more than 10x that many full-time police officers in the US. Can one conclude that the responding fraction of this tiny-circulation magazine's readership is statistically representative of all police officers in the country?

psychometry 6y ago

Yes, these rioters would have been dealt with quite quickly, and violently, had they not been white right-wingers. The nation's largest police organization (FoP) endorsed Trump as did most of the police unions around the country. I can think of no better argument for systemically rebuilding law enforcement across the country than this. The system is rotten to its core and it's because of the people in it.

briandear 6y ago
That just isn’t true. The “Autonomous Zones” lasted for weeks. Left wing protestors and rioters got away with literal murder, violence, looting. How many people did the protestors at the capital harm? How much property was actually damaged? There are hundreds or more small businesses that were looted or burned to the ground during the left wing protests. How many small businesses or individuals were harmed by the Capitol protestors? There was a unarmed protestor that was shot and killed by a Capitol cop. Where is the outrage over an unarmed woman getting shot? Perhaps because she is a white Trump supporter she doesn’t matter as much as a black felon suspect getting shot by cops? The hypocrisy is vivid but not surprising. Left wing riots that destroy and loot small businesses that have nothing to do with the grievances being protested: “peaceful protest” supported by AOC and other Democrat politicians. Trump protestors occupying the halls of the very institution they are protesting? Somehow they are seditious and horrible. If these Capitol protesters were leftists protesting a Trump victory, the media and most people here would be singing a different tune. And what’s frustrating to many people is how even a discussion of election fraud gets flagged and buried. Especially in a place like Hacker News. Has anyone actually looked at the statistical anomolies from the election? We’ve talked about voter machine integrity years ago on HN, but those concerns disappeared all the sudden. Concerns about electronic voting seem to evaporate when it benefits a candidate of ideological choice. It’s weird. It’s like the entire HN community has no technical curiosity about any part of the clearly “interesting” election. It really feels conspiratorial how all facets of the tech industry have identically but independently have worked to defeat a political candidate. So yes, I get the protests. When we’re being gaslit on “fair and secure” elections, but with our own eyes we see the appearance of exactly the opposite. People are going to get mad. One case in point: In Atlanta, during the presidential election night. All the media reported that counting was suspended for a “water pipe break” at State Farm Arena. A pipe break that never happened. Not a single work order. No repair. No maintenance record. Not a photo. Nothing. Zero evidence. Then all of the critical battlegrounds coincidentally stop counting votes at the same times? Florida didn’t stop. Neither did Texas. Or New York State. But the critical battlegrounds? Every one of them stopped the counts. Observers being kicked out. Observers being told to go home yet the counting continued. Trucks arriving in the middle of the night with extra votes.. This isn’t made up. This is all real. Was is fraud? Perhaps not. But are the coincidences that all happen to favor Biden compelling? Definitely. And yet even discussing these weird anomalies that all favor Biden can get you in Facebook jail, suspended from Twitter, kicked off of YouTube.. downvoted on Hacker News. Even debating or questioning the Coronavirus orthodoxy can get you censored. The world is fucked up and tech companies are a big part of the problem. I don’t think I have ever been more ashamed to be in this industry.

runarberg 6y ago

> Note I am not saying it was some kind of conspiracy with orders from above. There is no conspiracy necessary. A single officer can simply allocate too few officers to guard the place. And in fact that is what happened and is the reason the national guards weren’t there prepared and stopped it before it happened. No conspiracy, just a chain of sympathetic command.