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From the listed alternatives, only Matrix is the one that actually solves the issue of not having to trust our communications to any single monopolistic entity.

From the listed alternatives, only Matrix is the one that actually solves the issue of not having to trust our communications to any single monopolistic entity. You could add XMPP there as well, but it really doesn't matter. What does matter is for us to start pushing for openness and start evangelizing/helping others to adopt anything that puts us back in control of our communication. This is the one thing to fix, and the one opportunity that we are getting now to do this right. - Element's client is not "nice": we can fix it. We can not fix closedness. - Not everyone is using it: we can fix it. We can not fix privacy abuse from Facebook. - It's work to run/manage a server: find a hosting provider (cough https://communick.com https://communick.com cough).

chrismatheson 6y ago
will https://communick.com https://communick.com run / configure the various bridges? setting up my own home server for matrix with bridges to existing services (inc WhatsApp) has been on my list for a while. Seems like a nice way to try and migrate slowly away from other services, and if it works well I can show my friends in a sort of like "look this is how ive done it"
- KitDuncan 6y ago
  Don't know about communick, but this https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy is super easy to setup and supports all the bridges I ever needed.
- rglullis 6y ago
  The only concern I have with bridges is that I am not so sure how this affects my biggest promise - user privacy. But I am experimenting with the bridges on personal server and depending on how it goes I might have it as a separate product/offering - away from Communick.
holstvoogd 6y ago
> It's work to run/manage a server: find a hosting provider I'm thinking it might be time to accept that 'we', hackers/nerds/technically inclined individuals/early adopters, start 'selling' and providing these services for our families and friends. Assuming you are involved with communick: I like the idea of, but I am not sold on moving my communications etc to some random llc. Especially with as little information as there is on the website, I'm having trouble trusting that. I would not send my friend and family there tbh.
- rglullis 6y ago
  Yes, I am involved with Communick. I wrote a Show HN a few months ago but unfortunately it didn't pick up. [0] Regarding trust. You don't have to trust me. That is one of the best things regarding end-to-end encryption. To be completely honest, the main issues now is (1) bus factor (I am mostly working alone on it, but I do have people that can take over this in case something happens to me) and (2) I am bootstrapped and not working full-time yet. Alas, both of these issues are the type that resolve themselves by having paying customers. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23827688 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23827688
mschuetz 6y ago
Matrix, or at least Element, has terrible UX, though, and I'd never recommend it to my family. It opens three message boxes every single time I open the web client, and I can't disable these boxes permanently. Oh, and I have to login again every time because it doesn't remember logins.
- rglullis 6y ago
  Again: bugs can be fixed. You are free to go open an issue and get developers to look at this. Element's short history has shown that they are aware of the issues and are reasonably responsive in fixing them. There is no place you can go to open an issue that says "Facebook is exploiting user data even on applications that are supposed (promised, even) to be private.". Even if it were, ALL of Facebook's history is filled with privacy violations. "Move fast and break things" should NEVER be a motto of a company that deals with the lives and social interactions of 2+ billion people.
  - gorgoiler 6y ago
    Facebook’s mantra of “Move Fast and Break Things” had a clear meaning: it is far more important to ship products and innovate — at the risk of introducing bugs — than it is to keep the current version of the software in perfect working order. Especially so when you win only by our growing your competitors. “Bugs are tolerated as they are the price worth paying for a rapidly evolving code base, but you gotta fix ‘em” wouldn’t fit so neatly on a poster. Ironic in a thread beseeching forgiveness for Element’s incompleteness.
    - rglullis 6y ago
      I know. My point is that this idea of innovation should not be extended to any realm outside of software. By pushing themselves to become the central way to connect people, they changed and broke society: civil discourse, increased tribalism and polarization. They broke a good part of this generation: people growing up with anxiety due to a sense of inadequacy caused by seeing only the facade of their peer group (the instagram profile) and not the true depth of their characters. Doom-scrolling. Slacktivism. These the type of bugs that should never be accepted and are hard to repair. Element client failing to ring on a call is a nuisance. I can call the person back. My teenage cousins who are growing so socially inept I worry they won't survive for a day outside of their homes without a cellphone? The arguments I had with my wife over her Instagram habit and the fact that she does not see how that relates to her insecurities/anxieties? That will be a lot more work to fix.
lucideer 6y ago
> Element's client is not "nice": we can fix it. We can, but part of the selling point of Matrix is choice and I've found that not only is Element not "nice", but it actually has different goals as a client (it seems more Slack-esque in focus, than WhatsApp-esque to me). What we need if the aim is to advocate for an alternative to WhatsApp is to find something that solves the same problems. There's a few options on Matrix.org[0]: Nio[1] seems very nice but it's iOS only and still alpha, but I've been using FluffyChat[2] and I've found it good sofar. Much much nicer than Element at least. [0] https://matrix.org/clients/ https://matrix.org/clients/ [1] https://nio.chat/ https://nio.chat/ [2] https://fluffychat.im/ https://fluffychat.im/
tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
"Element's client is not "nice": we can fix it" No, we can't. Because the time aspect matters, and if you want people to switch now, the client has to be polished now, not "when it's done". And right now, it's a mess.
- rglullis 6y ago
  How hard is it to understand that "switching" is not a discrete action? It does not have to an all-or-nothing proposition. Do it in stages. Try this: first get yourself to use it with a few friends. See for yourself what use cases work well and what use cases don't. Bonus points if you collect this feedback and give to the team. Bring your close contacts to use it and try to make your default app, but don't beat yourself or swear it off when you can. Upon new release, try the use cases that were failing and see what progress has been made. Best case, you end up realizing that the new system is not as bad as you thought and you are ready to jump out of a shitty locked-in network. Worst case you spent some time learning about a free system and you are more informed and able to help those that know of no alternative and think that being spied on and manipulated is just a given.
Siira 6y ago
> we can fix it This "we" is nonexistent. It will never reach mainstream usage with its current bad UI/UX, and people have not fixed it. I don't think it will ever reach feature parity.
- rglullis 6y ago
  > This "we" is nonexistent Really? It just happened to spring into existence? No people working on it? No alternative clients? > It will never reach mainstream usage. Quit the defeatist BS, please. Linux is never going to be a mainstream desktop OS, yet many people have been using for decades already and are free from proprietary systems. No "feature parity"? Give it time and understand that freedom comes at a price. Do not sell yourself for convenience.
BlueTemplar 6y ago
What is not "nice" about Element ? I've finally had the opportunity to try it during Christmas, when I finally managed to convince a friend to try it, and I was very pleasantly surprised to the degree of polish it had both on Ubuntu and Android !
chessmango 6y ago
Just wanted to point out that your cert for storage.communick.com has expired. I'm assuming yours (or at least related) because mentioned with a cough :P

chrismatheson 6y ago

will https://communick.com https://communick.com run / configure the various bridges? setting up my own home server for matrix with bridges to existing services (inc WhatsApp) has been on my list for a while. Seems like a nice way to try and migrate slowly away from other services, and if it works well I can show my friends in a sort of like "look this is how ive done it"

KitDuncan 6y ago
Don't know about communick, but this https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy is super easy to setup and supports all the bridges I ever needed.
rglullis 6y ago
The only concern I have with bridges is that I am not so sure how this affects my biggest promise - user privacy. But I am experimenting with the bridges on personal server and depending on how it goes I might have it as a separate product/offering - away from Communick.

holstvoogd 6y ago

> It's work to run/manage a server: find a hosting provider I'm thinking it might be time to accept that 'we', hackers/nerds/technically inclined individuals/early adopters, start 'selling' and providing these services for our families and friends. Assuming you are involved with communick: I like the idea of, but I am not sold on moving my communications etc to some random llc. Especially with as little information as there is on the website, I'm having trouble trusting that. I would not send my friend and family there tbh.

rglullis 6y ago
Yes, I am involved with Communick. I wrote a Show HN a few months ago but unfortunately it didn't pick up. [0] Regarding trust. You don't have to trust me. That is one of the best things regarding end-to-end encryption. To be completely honest, the main issues now is (1) bus factor (I am mostly working alone on it, but I do have people that can take over this in case something happens to me) and (2) I am bootstrapped and not working full-time yet. Alas, both of these issues are the type that resolve themselves by having paying customers. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23827688 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23827688

mschuetz 6y ago

Matrix, or at least Element, has terrible UX, though, and I'd never recommend it to my family. It opens three message boxes every single time I open the web client, and I can't disable these boxes permanently. Oh, and I have to login again every time because it doesn't remember logins.

rglullis 6y ago
Again: bugs can be fixed. You are free to go open an issue and get developers to look at this. Element's short history has shown that they are aware of the issues and are reasonably responsive in fixing them. There is no place you can go to open an issue that says "Facebook is exploiting user data even on applications that are supposed (promised, even) to be private.". Even if it were, ALL of Facebook's history is filled with privacy violations. "Move fast and break things" should NEVER be a motto of a company that deals with the lives and social interactions of 2+ billion people.
- gorgoiler 6y ago
  Facebook’s mantra of “Move Fast and Break Things” had a clear meaning: it is far more important to ship products and innovate — at the risk of introducing bugs — than it is to keep the current version of the software in perfect working order. Especially so when you win only by our growing your competitors. “Bugs are tolerated as they are the price worth paying for a rapidly evolving code base, but you gotta fix ‘em” wouldn’t fit so neatly on a poster. Ironic in a thread beseeching forgiveness for Element’s incompleteness.
  - rglullis 6y ago
    I know. My point is that this idea of innovation should not be extended to any realm outside of software. By pushing themselves to become the central way to connect people, they changed and broke society: civil discourse, increased tribalism and polarization. They broke a good part of this generation: people growing up with anxiety due to a sense of inadequacy caused by seeing only the facade of their peer group (the instagram profile) and not the true depth of their characters. Doom-scrolling. Slacktivism. These the type of bugs that should never be accepted and are hard to repair. Element client failing to ring on a call is a nuisance. I can call the person back. My teenage cousins who are growing so socially inept I worry they won't survive for a day outside of their homes without a cellphone? The arguments I had with my wife over her Instagram habit and the fact that she does not see how that relates to her insecurities/anxieties? That will be a lot more work to fix.

lucideer 6y ago

> Element's client is not "nice": we can fix it. We can, but part of the selling point of Matrix is choice and I've found that not only is Element not "nice", but it actually has different goals as a client (it seems more Slack-esque in focus, than WhatsApp-esque to me). What we need if the aim is to advocate for an alternative to WhatsApp is to find something that solves the same problems. There's a few options on Matrix.org[0]: Nio[1] seems very nice but it's iOS only and still alpha, but I've been using FluffyChat[2] and I've found it good sofar. Much much nicer than Element at least. [0] https://matrix.org/clients/ https://matrix.org/clients/ [1] https://nio.chat/ https://nio.chat/ [2] https://fluffychat.im/ https://fluffychat.im/

tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago

"Element's client is not "nice": we can fix it" No, we can't. Because the time aspect matters, and if you want people to switch now, the client has to be polished now, not "when it's done". And right now, it's a mess.

rglullis 6y ago
How hard is it to understand that "switching" is not a discrete action? It does not have to an all-or-nothing proposition. Do it in stages. Try this: first get yourself to use it with a few friends. See for yourself what use cases work well and what use cases don't. Bonus points if you collect this feedback and give to the team. Bring your close contacts to use it and try to make your default app, but don't beat yourself or swear it off when you can. Upon new release, try the use cases that were failing and see what progress has been made. Best case, you end up realizing that the new system is not as bad as you thought and you are ready to jump out of a shitty locked-in network. Worst case you spent some time learning about a free system and you are more informed and able to help those that know of no alternative and think that being spied on and manipulated is just a given.

Siira 6y ago

> we can fix it This "we" is nonexistent. It will never reach mainstream usage with its current bad UI/UX, and people have not fixed it. I don't think it will ever reach feature parity.

rglullis 6y ago
> This "we" is nonexistent Really? It just happened to spring into existence? No people working on it? No alternative clients? > It will never reach mainstream usage. Quit the defeatist BS, please. Linux is never going to be a mainstream desktop OS, yet many people have been using for decades already and are free from proprietary systems. No "feature parity"? Give it time and understand that freedom comes at a price. Do not sell yourself for convenience.

BlueTemplar 6y ago

What is not "nice" about Element ? I've finally had the opportunity to try it during Christmas, when I finally managed to convince a friend to try it, and I was very pleasantly surprised to the degree of polish it had both on Ubuntu and Android !

chessmango 6y ago

Just wanted to point out that your cert for storage.communick.com has expired. I'm assuming yours (or at least related) because mentioned with a cough :P