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> it is over with no real effects I admit to being a little shocked at the glibness of this statement. As a non-USian, I see a profound shock among other thoug

> it is over with no real effects I admit to being a little shocked at the glibness of this statement. As a non-USian, I see a profound shock among other thoughtful non-USians that it has come to this. Regardless of political affiliation, I believe most honest, ordinary non-USians have held in high regard the robustness of the American democratic system and its resilience to the wholesale corruption that plagues many other countries. The democratic ideal, and America as exemplar, has always been held in lofty regard. However, I’m more certain than ever that this ideal has now been firmly relegated to a historical oddity. A 200 year blip in the record of human governance, with a forthcoming return to mean. Watching this slow motion disaster unfold has mad me very, very sad.

pjc50 6y ago
I'm not so much shocked as tired. This is like 9/11 with a four year warning of the planes arriving and being able to watch them on Flightradar, towing a huge sign saying "we're going to crash this baby into the Pentagon". And nobody doing anything about it because that would mean that "both sides" weren't in fact equal. Pleasantly surprised that the death toll was only four, of which only one was shot; much better than the regular death toll of single mass shooter incidents.
- bonoboTP 6y ago
  How is it a 9/11? In 9/11 thousands of people died, postcard-symbolic buildings demolished by foreign terrorists. Here... A few hundred people strolled around in the Capitol and 4 people died.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    Ah, but how many of those people died of 9/11 or just with 9/11? How many of them had pre-existing conditions? Besides, that's just one day of COVID. Was it worth closing the skies and invading Iraq for a mere three thousand people some of whom would have died anyway? ... no, I probably shouldn't joke about this, however dark, but if there's one thing that last year has made clear is that death tolls barely move the needle politically and that symbols stick in people's heads and effect real change. Even if the symbols aren't tied to underlying reality. The revenge of Baudrillard. https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20201210/covid-19-deaths-surpass-911-deaths-in-single-day https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20201210/covid-19-deaths-sur... The symbolism of protestors in the capitol was "shocking" upthread. I worry that next month we'll have forgotten about it because something worse will have happened. We've already moved on from the guy who blew up a telephone exchange, and the other occupations of state capitols, and those guys who tried to kidnap a state governor despite being infiltrated by the FBI. (For the avoidance of doubt, I am with John Donne that anyone's death diminishes us, but avoidable and preventable deaths doubly so, which is why I'm in favour of responsible politics and the politicisation of preventable deaths)
    - bonoboTP 6y ago
      People care about whatever they are told to care about by the media or whatever social media algorithms shove onto their feed. Whole countries can freak out about the disappearance of one child or a car accident caused by some random intoxicated person and then everybody talks about their names, there are political leaders chiming in etc. Whole countries can come together to donate millions for the treatment of a rare disease of a single child. It's kinda random. Humans are not calibrated to care about actual stats, just stories. A good story of one person can weigh more than a boring story of millions. It's all theater, nothing more, whichever party wins... It's circus.
tsimionescu 6y ago
I meant 'no real effect' in terms of modifying the results of the election itself, or loss of life. You're absolutely right that the symbolic effect is huge and will likely be long-lasting - both inside the US and outside.
bonoboTP 6y ago
> Regardless of political affiliation, I believe most honest, ordinary non-USians have held in high regard the robustness of the American democratic system and its resilience to the wholesale corruption that plagues many other countries. The democratic ideal, and America as exemplar, has always been held in lofty regard Where are you from, how old are you? Watching too many Hollywood hero movies? I think the above attitude is less common outside the US than within. It's usually Americans who view themselves as through the lens of American exceptionalism, the rightful police of the world, just bringing democracy everywhere out of altruism and a care for people everywhere etc. In Europe, the US is definitely seen in a more ambivalent light with lots of corruption etc.
- QuesnayJr 6y ago
  I live in Europe, and the universal reaction I saw in my circle was shock. People don't think the US is perfect, but the events of yesterday are completely outside the range of what they expect to see in the US.
  - bonoboTP 6y ago
    What exactly? They broke into a building and wandered about a bit. They didn't take any politician hostage, didn't burn down the building, etc. They were like unruly children. Aren't you shocked to see thousands of cars burned in France over NYE? About seeing the American riots last summer? It's blown out of proportion. This Trumpist crowd was disorganized. They didn't have a plan, didn't have leaders, didn't have demands or any credible way to win. Life goes on.
    - pjc50 6y ago
      They had a plan, albeit an insane one, a leader, albeit an insane one, demands (change the election result), and a credible way to win (abduct or kill senators in order to change the outcome of votes). It's all very "we took six of the seven control rods out of the reactor and nothing happened!"
      - 6y ago
ativzzz 6y ago
If anything, yesterday's event should reinforce your opinion of > the American democratic system and its resilience because there was a half-hearted attempt at a coup, and it failed miserably, even when indirectly backed by the current president.

pjc50 6y ago

I'm not so much shocked as tired. This is like 9/11 with a four year warning of the planes arriving and being able to watch them on Flightradar, towing a huge sign saying "we're going to crash this baby into the Pentagon". And nobody doing anything about it because that would mean that "both sides" weren't in fact equal. Pleasantly surprised that the death toll was only four, of which only one was shot; much better than the regular death toll of single mass shooter incidents.

bonoboTP 6y ago
How is it a 9/11? In 9/11 thousands of people died, postcard-symbolic buildings demolished by foreign terrorists. Here... A few hundred people strolled around in the Capitol and 4 people died.
- pjc50 6y ago
  Ah, but how many of those people died of 9/11 or just with 9/11? How many of them had pre-existing conditions? Besides, that's just one day of COVID. Was it worth closing the skies and invading Iraq for a mere three thousand people some of whom would have died anyway? ... no, I probably shouldn't joke about this, however dark, but if there's one thing that last year has made clear is that death tolls barely move the needle politically and that symbols stick in people's heads and effect real change. Even if the symbols aren't tied to underlying reality. The revenge of Baudrillard. https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20201210/covid-19-deaths-surpass-911-deaths-in-single-day https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20201210/covid-19-deaths-sur... The symbolism of protestors in the capitol was "shocking" upthread. I worry that next month we'll have forgotten about it because something worse will have happened. We've already moved on from the guy who blew up a telephone exchange, and the other occupations of state capitols, and those guys who tried to kidnap a state governor despite being infiltrated by the FBI. (For the avoidance of doubt, I am with John Donne that anyone's death diminishes us, but avoidable and preventable deaths doubly so, which is why I'm in favour of responsible politics and the politicisation of preventable deaths)
  - bonoboTP 6y ago
    People care about whatever they are told to care about by the media or whatever social media algorithms shove onto their feed. Whole countries can freak out about the disappearance of one child or a car accident caused by some random intoxicated person and then everybody talks about their names, there are political leaders chiming in etc. Whole countries can come together to donate millions for the treatment of a rare disease of a single child. It's kinda random. Humans are not calibrated to care about actual stats, just stories. A good story of one person can weigh more than a boring story of millions. It's all theater, nothing more, whichever party wins... It's circus.

tsimionescu 6y ago

I meant 'no real effect' in terms of modifying the results of the election itself, or loss of life. You're absolutely right that the symbolic effect is huge and will likely be long-lasting - both inside the US and outside.

bonoboTP 6y ago

> Regardless of political affiliation, I believe most honest, ordinary non-USians have held in high regard the robustness of the American democratic system and its resilience to the wholesale corruption that plagues many other countries. The democratic ideal, and America as exemplar, has always been held in lofty regard Where are you from, how old are you? Watching too many Hollywood hero movies? I think the above attitude is less common outside the US than within. It's usually Americans who view themselves as through the lens of American exceptionalism, the rightful police of the world, just bringing democracy everywhere out of altruism and a care for people everywhere etc. In Europe, the US is definitely seen in a more ambivalent light with lots of corruption etc.

QuesnayJr 6y ago
I live in Europe, and the universal reaction I saw in my circle was shock. People don't think the US is perfect, but the events of yesterday are completely outside the range of what they expect to see in the US.
- bonoboTP 6y ago
  What exactly? They broke into a building and wandered about a bit. They didn't take any politician hostage, didn't burn down the building, etc. They were like unruly children. Aren't you shocked to see thousands of cars burned in France over NYE? About seeing the American riots last summer? It's blown out of proportion. This Trumpist crowd was disorganized. They didn't have a plan, didn't have leaders, didn't have demands or any credible way to win. Life goes on.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    They had a plan, albeit an insane one, a leader, albeit an insane one, demands (change the election result), and a credible way to win (abduct or kill senators in order to change the outcome of votes). It's all very "we took six of the seven control rods out of the reactor and nothing happened!"
    - 6y ago

ativzzz 6y ago

If anything, yesterday's event should reinforce your opinion of > the American democratic system and its resilience because there was a half-hearted attempt at a coup, and it failed miserably, even when indirectly backed by the current president.