4 ms·

> I suggest something that lets you use any client/platform you want, uses the same crypto primitives, and lets you choose what server/country your data is host

> I suggest something that lets you use any client/platform you want, uses the same crypto primitives, and lets you choose what server/country your data is hosted in and change your mind any time, e.g Matrix. I'll bite. Who's paying for my johnchristopher@whatever.tld and for the data (avatar pictures, transfered files, chat logs) associated with it ? Will the Matrix foundation let me use their services forever and for free ? Will there be discussion on HN in ten years about getting your own custom domain and own federated server ? For one account only ? Like we have for mail regularly ?

lrvick 6y ago
You can think of it like email. Maybe you started on AOL and later realized AOL is terrible. You could export your address book and move to a client/server you trust more and notify all your contacts from the new location. This is the same story on Matrix and what I mean when I say it is a freedom respecting decentralized service. You are also free to run your own DNS to a dedicated EMS instance then later point to your own self hosted server later much like the freedom you have using your own domain and MX records on Google Apps allowing you to later move to a new email provider without having to update your social graph to change your address. On Signal, there is no such option. You use their clients and servers forever, or GTFO.
- raziel2p 6y ago
  Following the e-mail analogy: Inevitably, there will be contacts of yours who didn't get or read your notification, or contacts of yours who aren't in your contacts list.
  - lrvick 6y ago
    True. It is up to you to point your own domain day one with either email or matrix if you wish to avoid this discomfort. Signal offers no such choice. Even if you don't do this, you can still reach contacts on the old server and middle through. If you switch from walled garden to walled garden like WhatsApp to signal there is no migration path at all.
  - MayeulC 6y ago
    As I wrote in another comment, portable identities are a matrix spec change I'm quite excited about: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/blob/neilalexander/identities/proposals/2787-portable-identities.md https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/blob/neilalexander/... Start on a server, but your real identity is attached to a cryptographic key, not an e-mail-like identifier. That would allow you to move around, and maybe one day get rid of domain names altogether (using something like yggdrasil or tor to host and connect servers, for instance).
- johnchristopher 6y ago
  > Maybe you started on AOL and later realized AOL is terrible. You could export your address book and move to a client/server you trust more and notify all your contacts from the new location. The whole point is in avoiding starting with an AOL like service. So far only big matrix provider are reliable and performant enough to be usable. This is @gmail.com all over again but with @matrix.org tld. Except you won't be able to carry your messages from a tld to another when you decide to rely on another domain name (your own or someone else's). How long before Matrix foundation send messages telling users they are going to delete their rooms and messages if they don't log in once a year ? Or that they are now restricted your account to matrix.org rooms to "save operating costs" ? The whole tech stack is free but operating costs are not.
  - majewsky 6y ago
    > So far only big matrix provider are reliable and performant enough to be usable. I've been running a Matrix homeserver on a 1/1 VM for years without any issues. There is no downside to choosing a small server, you can still federate with everyone else. That's the entire point.
    - johnchristopher 6y ago
      Same here. Except joining rooms on federated instance need something beefier than my $5/month VPS SSD. And much more storage for data (pet peeve of mine: 4K avatars pics that are not resized and stored as is on my end of the federation).

lrvick 6y ago

You can think of it like email. Maybe you started on AOL and later realized AOL is terrible. You could export your address book and move to a client/server you trust more and notify all your contacts from the new location. This is the same story on Matrix and what I mean when I say it is a freedom respecting decentralized service. You are also free to run your own DNS to a dedicated EMS instance then later point to your own self hosted server later much like the freedom you have using your own domain and MX records on Google Apps allowing you to later move to a new email provider without having to update your social graph to change your address. On Signal, there is no such option. You use their clients and servers forever, or GTFO.

raziel2p 6y ago
Following the e-mail analogy: Inevitably, there will be contacts of yours who didn't get or read your notification, or contacts of yours who aren't in your contacts list.
- lrvick 6y ago
  True. It is up to you to point your own domain day one with either email or matrix if you wish to avoid this discomfort. Signal offers no such choice. Even if you don't do this, you can still reach contacts on the old server and middle through. If you switch from walled garden to walled garden like WhatsApp to signal there is no migration path at all.
- MayeulC 6y ago
  As I wrote in another comment, portable identities are a matrix spec change I'm quite excited about: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/blob/neilalexander/identities/proposals/2787-portable-identities.md https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/blob/neilalexander/... Start on a server, but your real identity is attached to a cryptographic key, not an e-mail-like identifier. That would allow you to move around, and maybe one day get rid of domain names altogether (using something like yggdrasil or tor to host and connect servers, for instance).
johnchristopher 6y ago
> Maybe you started on AOL and later realized AOL is terrible. You could export your address book and move to a client/server you trust more and notify all your contacts from the new location. The whole point is in avoiding starting with an AOL like service. So far only big matrix provider are reliable and performant enough to be usable. This is @gmail.com all over again but with @matrix.org tld. Except you won't be able to carry your messages from a tld to another when you decide to rely on another domain name (your own or someone else's). How long before Matrix foundation send messages telling users they are going to delete their rooms and messages if they don't log in once a year ? Or that they are now restricted your account to matrix.org rooms to "save operating costs" ? The whole tech stack is free but operating costs are not.
- majewsky 6y ago
  > So far only big matrix provider are reliable and performant enough to be usable. I've been running a Matrix homeserver on a 1/1 VM for years without any issues. There is no downside to choosing a small server, you can still federate with everyone else. That's the entire point.
  - johnchristopher 6y ago
    Same here. Except joining rooms on federated instance need something beefier than my $5/month VPS SSD. And much more storage for data (pet peeve of mine: 4K avatars pics that are not resized and stored as is on my end of the federation).