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A dead woman on the floor with blood pooling out of her head sends a weaker message in this respect than an appropriately-decorated piece of cloth being raised?

A dead woman on the floor with blood pooling out of her head sends a weaker message in this respect than an appropriately-decorated piece of cloth being raised? I suspect you may be a little too shaken by recent events to be thinking clearly. Thoughts and prayers, my friend.

macawfish 6y ago
That flag symbolizes millions of dead and generations of bitterness. It's very, very weighty.
- 1000units 6y ago
  So does the American flag for a lot of people, that's why we need a military, right? Did you know this woman was a veteran, by the way? She swore an oath to protect that flag, not the confederate flag. Try reconciling this in your mind, maybe you'll understand what's happened better.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    Who was she and what were the circumstances of her death?
    - nerdponx 6y ago
      She appears to have been shot (maybe by a security guard?) while trying to break in through a window.
    - pjc50 6y ago
      Finally saw a news report: https://www.thedailybeast.com/one-woman-shot-six-hospitalized-as-trump-loving-mob-swarms-capitol?ref=author https://www.thedailybeast.com/one-woman-shot-six-hospitalize...
  - macawfish 6y ago
    I'm not justifying it, just giving context for why folks are alarmed, especially for people from other countries who don't necessarily have context for obscure US symbols. And yes, the American flag is problematic in its own way.
johnchristopher 6y ago
Parent didn't say anything about that woman, it's a new element in the conversation. Don't put your assumptions in people's mouth.
- 1000units 6y ago
  His assumptions are built into his response. He said "how about this symbolism!" and talked about a piece of cloth. I'm now asking what an unarmed woman with blood pooling out of her head symbolizes. If it helps you answer the question at all, she was also a US military veteran with four tours of service.
  - matham 6y ago
    It symbolizes nothing. A flag is a symbol for an idea and means nothing on its own. A death is not a symbol for anything but means a lot on its own. I really don't understand how this is relevant to flying that flag which represents much intentional suffering, to which the above poster objected.
    - refurb 6y ago
      A death is not a symbol? We’re you around for the protests this summer?
      - 1000units 6y ago
        I'd like to shove a picture of a pile of corpses from Auschwitz in this guy's face and ask him what he thinks. We need to test whether the death of innocent people symbolizes something only if it serves some pet political impulse or not.
  - tehwebguy 6y ago
    Yeah, this is a tragedy and a failure of the VA as well. I’m sure there is a program (or several) to help our vets adjust to civilian life but it needs to be updated to help build community so they aren’t as likely to get sucked into Qanon or similar cults like she did. Separately, we need to continue to raise our expectations of police ability to de-escalate situations. This is one of many, many unarmed civilians killed by police in recent years. Normally they aren’t storming the capitol, but it should still be possible for police / secret service to de-escalate a situation like this. It won’t happen until our DAs and various state attorneys start charging cops that kill.
tsimionescu 6y ago
What we have seen conclusive proof of tonight is that police are happy to work with or at least to allow fascist mobs to storm the government, while they are willing to maim and kill leftist protesters against police brutality at the slightest signs of provocation. The fact that a woman was shot by police in last night's protest is a tragedy, as all human life is precious. But a democracy can't bow down to mob rule for fear of violence. The protesters should have never even been allowed to get near the Capitol building while Congress was in session, and in that case perhaps this loss of life could have also been avoided. Police brutality and the police culture of violence before other solutions is also something that has been discussed in leftist circles the entire year. It is a culture that must be changed, which will surely be a monumental task, if it even is attempted. Still, the alternative is not simply allowing mobs to attack federal institutions with impunity.
- mechEpleb 6y ago
  In case you have forgotten, last year saw literal insurrectionist leftist communes that took over parts of cities, and were left unsuppressed for weeks. This is definitely quite an escalation, but to me, a European looking from the outside in, it looks anything but unilateral.
  - nerdponx 6y ago
    The fact remains that BLM related protests in 2020 were handled much more harshly than this. If this were a BLM protest, not only would the protestors have been all arrested and/or killed, but the media would be treating it like a national emergency. And it's not just the fact that the police allowed it to happen or that the military was not asked to intervene until way too late. It's also the alarmingly not-alarmed media response. What happened to "thugs" or "rioters" or "enemy combatants"?
    - monoideism 6y ago
      Are we watching the same news channels? They were called "terrorists" on several cable news channels, and (fairly) "insurrectionists" on just about every news channel. I also heard "thugs" more than once. I heard the event as a whole called a "sacrilege".

macawfish 6y ago

That flag symbolizes millions of dead and generations of bitterness. It's very, very weighty.

1000units 6y ago
So does the American flag for a lot of people, that's why we need a military, right? Did you know this woman was a veteran, by the way? She swore an oath to protect that flag, not the confederate flag. Try reconciling this in your mind, maybe you'll understand what's happened better.
- pjc50 6y ago
  Who was she and what were the circumstances of her death?
  - nerdponx 6y ago
    She appears to have been shot (maybe by a security guard?) while trying to break in through a window.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    Finally saw a news report: https://www.thedailybeast.com/one-woman-shot-six-hospitalized-as-trump-loving-mob-swarms-capitol?ref=author https://www.thedailybeast.com/one-woman-shot-six-hospitalize...
- macawfish 6y ago
  I'm not justifying it, just giving context for why folks are alarmed, especially for people from other countries who don't necessarily have context for obscure US symbols. And yes, the American flag is problematic in its own way.

johnchristopher 6y ago

Parent didn't say anything about that woman, it's a new element in the conversation. Don't put your assumptions in people's mouth.

1000units 6y ago
His assumptions are built into his response. He said "how about this symbolism!" and talked about a piece of cloth. I'm now asking what an unarmed woman with blood pooling out of her head symbolizes. If it helps you answer the question at all, she was also a US military veteran with four tours of service.
- matham 6y ago
  It symbolizes nothing. A flag is a symbol for an idea and means nothing on its own. A death is not a symbol for anything but means a lot on its own. I really don't understand how this is relevant to flying that flag which represents much intentional suffering, to which the above poster objected.
  - refurb 6y ago
    A death is not a symbol? We’re you around for the protests this summer?
    - 1000units 6y ago
      I'd like to shove a picture of a pile of corpses from Auschwitz in this guy's face and ask him what he thinks. We need to test whether the death of innocent people symbolizes something only if it serves some pet political impulse or not.
- tehwebguy 6y ago
  Yeah, this is a tragedy and a failure of the VA as well. I’m sure there is a program (or several) to help our vets adjust to civilian life but it needs to be updated to help build community so they aren’t as likely to get sucked into Qanon or similar cults like she did. Separately, we need to continue to raise our expectations of police ability to de-escalate situations. This is one of many, many unarmed civilians killed by police in recent years. Normally they aren’t storming the capitol, but it should still be possible for police / secret service to de-escalate a situation like this. It won’t happen until our DAs and various state attorneys start charging cops that kill.

tsimionescu 6y ago

What we have seen conclusive proof of tonight is that police are happy to work with or at least to allow fascist mobs to storm the government, while they are willing to maim and kill leftist protesters against police brutality at the slightest signs of provocation. The fact that a woman was shot by police in last night's protest is a tragedy, as all human life is precious. But a democracy can't bow down to mob rule for fear of violence. The protesters should have never even been allowed to get near the Capitol building while Congress was in session, and in that case perhaps this loss of life could have also been avoided. Police brutality and the police culture of violence before other solutions is also something that has been discussed in leftist circles the entire year. It is a culture that must be changed, which will surely be a monumental task, if it even is attempted. Still, the alternative is not simply allowing mobs to attack federal institutions with impunity.

mechEpleb 6y ago
In case you have forgotten, last year saw literal insurrectionist leftist communes that took over parts of cities, and were left unsuppressed for weeks. This is definitely quite an escalation, but to me, a European looking from the outside in, it looks anything but unilateral.
- nerdponx 6y ago
  The fact remains that BLM related protests in 2020 were handled much more harshly than this. If this were a BLM protest, not only would the protestors have been all arrested and/or killed, but the media would be treating it like a national emergency. And it's not just the fact that the police allowed it to happen or that the military was not asked to intervene until way too late. It's also the alarmingly not-alarmed media response. What happened to "thugs" or "rioters" or "enemy combatants"?
  - monoideism 6y ago
    Are we watching the same news channels? They were called "terrorists" on several cable news channels, and (fairly) "insurrectionists" on just about every news channel. I also heard "thugs" more than once. I heard the event as a whole called a "sacrilege".