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It was quite the adventure watching this all on TV from Europe. One thought that comes to mind is that I'm sure the most heavily armed nation in the world coul

by stef25 6y ago

It was quite the adventure watching this all on TV from Europe. One thought that comes to mind is that I'm sure the most heavily armed nation in the world could have gotten rid of these people in no time, but perhaps they didn't because of the symbolism of the location. Here in Brussels' main court house (a massive imposing building like the Capitol), a guy once just strolled in and shot and killed a judge (correction: a judge and a clerk, in 2010) and then just strolled out. The minister of justice said they would not improve security because they wanted the place to remain "of the people, for the people" (paraphrased from memory, it doesn't make total sense but you get the jest of it). I have friends working at the European parliament where at one time was a group of people protesting against the presence of Marine Le Pen, rocks in hands. There were exactly 2 (unarmed) "security guards" present who told my friend they obviously stood no chance if these people decided to charge. On another occasion 100 Kurdish protestors managed to break in to the building. But they just don't want these places to look like Fort Knox. In the end, a guy in buffalo costume fooling around on the senate floor is better than puddles of blood.

kube-system 6y ago
As a kid, I walked right into the front doors of the US Capitol, down the hall, and into one of my representatives offices. (Without adult supervision too!) They were quite friendly. The building has security, of course, but it’s not like some kind of off-limits private building. https://www.visitthecapitol.gov/plan-visit/watching-congress-session https://www.visitthecapitol.gov/plan-visit/watching-congress... That being said, I have never been more embarrassed and scared for politics in this country than I have been today. These people really had no clue about the kind of damage they did today. It is looking like misinformation is the biggest plague of the Information Age.
- Cthulhu_ 6y ago
  It's not, but one, congress was in session, and two, they knew there was going to be a big group of agitated protestors outside. Compare how tight security was when there was a BLM protest there.
  - kube-system 6y ago
    Oh yes, clearly today was not a normal day that people should be walking in the front door. And it should have been treated more seriously than it apparently was. I’m just saying that the place isn’t a fortress by default.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
koube 6y ago
There are many alternatives that are not "total anarchy" or "puddles of blood" or "fort knox". Obviously America tends to prefer the fort knox strategy[0], but there are other choices like staging police nearby[1]. [0]: https://www.slowboring.com/p/maga-mob https://www.slowboring.com/p/maga-mob (see picture of national guard on steps of Capitol) [1]: https://www.thedailybeast.com/capitol-police-were-poorly-prepared-for-riots-by-pro-trump-mob https://www.thedailybeast.com/capitol-police-were-poorly-pre...
- stef25 6y ago
  Yes, a serious error of judgement was made letting these people storm up the stairs. Hopefully cause of stupidity and not malice.
  - tsimionescu 6y ago
    There is no way to attribute this to anything but malice. The police response was so wildly different from the response to any other protest we have seen in the past 10 years that it is laughable to even entertain the idea that it was a case of stupidity.
baybal2 6y ago
> There were exactly 2 (unarmed) "security guards" present who told my friend they obviously stood no chance if these people decided to charge. No government stands a chance if an any much significant part of population raises against it. I'm not even saying a majority. What we saw today in DC was not a big rally. A big rally would look like this: https://i.tribune.com.pk/media/images/Khadim-Rizvi-funeral-21605970670-0/Khadim-Rizvi-funeral-21605970670-0.jpeg https://i.tribune.com.pk/media/images/Khadim-Rizvi-funeral-2... and like that for a few more city blocks. Or like this: https://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/moscow1991/AP9103100617.jpg https://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/moscow1991/AP9103... Or this: https://static.toiimg.com/img/67604038/Master.jpg https://static.toiimg.com/img/67604038/Master.jpg Learning living along with the radicals is a good alternative to having a war with them.
- buran77 6y ago
  > Learning living along with the radicals is a good alternative to having a war with them. This is what most regimes and "leaders" don't understand. They think that if they were put/elected there by some people then those are the only ones they have to serve. They do not acknowledge that they should serve the country. As such the disenfranchised start to think that if the power isn't on their side, the complete opposite must be. They drift towards an extreme, whatever that may be since both left and right extremes are very closer to each other - they justify the same things for different reasons. Once enough are disenfranchised the power balance shifts. But the next to come in power will do the same, this time with the "moral" justification that the others deserve to be punished, swinging the pendulum further to the opposite side. If you repeat this cycle a few times you get to the pendulum's breaking point. A president with a terrible character to begin with will just fast track the pendulum in one swing. They will add fuel to the fire and watch it burn not only out of pleasure or frustration, but also ineptitude.
- foolmeonce 6y ago
  > Learning living along with the radicals is a good alternative to having a war with them. I think the original deal of public education was to establish a realistic way to do this. IMO the over focus on the shared benefit of raising income/GDP as the benefit has compromised the long term sustainability of the system.
rixrax 6y ago
In some ways it brought back old memories of storming of Stasi HQ in Eastern Berlin[0]. I couldn't find references to that effect, but I recall there was talk back then that among the first ones to breach the Stasi were people from the western intelligence agencies, who had a pretty good idea of where to go and what to grab. [0] https://www.dw.com/en/stasi-hq-storming-german-president-praises-democratic-act/a-52009115 https://www.dw.com/en/stasi-hq-storming-german-president-pra...
kace91 6y ago
I mean, if we're talking about symbolism, you might be right for "a guy in a buffalo costume", but the confederate flag was flown inside the capitol. For many people, the damage that causes to government feeling "theirs" is much, much higher than a violent incident, even more so if we compare it to the way recent protests have been handled.
- 1000units 6y ago
  A dead woman on the floor with blood pooling out of her head sends a weaker message in this respect than an appropriately-decorated piece of cloth being raised? I suspect you may be a little too shaken by recent events to be thinking clearly. Thoughts and prayers, my friend.
  - macawfish 6y ago
    That flag symbolizes millions of dead and generations of bitterness. It's very, very weighty.
    - 1000units 6y ago
      So does the American flag for a lot of people, that's why we need a military, right? Did you know this woman was a veteran, by the way? She swore an oath to protect that flag, not the confederate flag. Try reconciling this in your mind, maybe you'll understand what's happened better.
      - pjc50 6y ago
        Who was she and what were the circumstances of her death?
        nerdponx 6y ago
        She appears to have been shot (maybe by a security guard?) while trying to break in through a window.
        6y ago
slezyr 6y ago
You know, it's not the first time the Capitol building has been stormed by the protestors. Before this, there was a BLM protest and they managed to hold the building just fine.
- astrange 6y ago
  They were being reinforced by mysterious federal forces then… which was bad, so we got rid of them. Last time’s problem was solved so hard it produced this time’s problem. The other issue is that reinforcements in DC are controlled by the President, who of course wanted this to happen so he could watch it on TV, so he didn’t mobilize any of them.
  - Technically 6y ago
    The police also let the "protestors" in.
- SamoyedFurFluff 6y ago
  BLM never made it into the capitol or even the grounds. They built a large fence to keep them out.
  - ryosuke 6y ago
    And? That's what should've happened yesterday too.
    - SamoyedFurFluff 6y ago
      But it didn’t. That’s what people are pointing out. All the stops pulled for BLM (so they’re clearly capable) and none of them pulled for this. Why?
Cthulhu_ 6y ago
> One thought that comes to mind is that I'm sure the most heavily armed nation in the world could have gotten rid of these people in no time, but perhaps they didn't because of the symbolism of the location. Oh no, the police let them through, there's clips showing they literally opened the gates, pictures of them taking selfies, etc. It's the "blue lives matter" subculture within those groups, where the police think they're on their side and the protestors think the police is on their side. The policemen involved should be fired and charged with dereliction of duty and conspiracy or something like that. Of course, there should have been a lot more (riot) police active as well, since it was known in advance it was going to be a bad protest.
- Mauricebranagh 6y ago
  Sickening when you consider the sacrifice of PC Keith Palmer who "un armed" stopped a knife wielding attacker attempting to breach the Houses of parliament.
- alkonaut 6y ago
  I hope it's investigated thuroughly. That said, I don't think that being apparently "nice" to protestors is necessarily a convincing proof that you are somehoe "letting it happen". If you are outnumbered and the situation isn't directly threatening, then it may be better to keep the situation from becoming threatening while you call for reinforcemens. Then the problem was that they were outnumbered to begin with, which could shift blame upwards. It's going to be obvious from investigating communications, whether reinforcements were called in, how quickly they were sent.
johnchristopher 6y ago
> One thought that comes to mind is that I'm sure the most heavily armed nation in the world could have gotten rid of these people in no time, but perhaps they didn't because of the symbolism of the location. > In the end, a guy in buffalo costume fooling around on the senate floor is better than puddles of blood. This statement is no longer true. My left leaning twitter feed has many references about how the police removed wheelchair bound protestors some years ago and references to lost eyes during BLM walks/riots and Jane Fonda's arrest on the steps of the Capitole and pictures of police officers in body armour waiting on the steps of the Capitole for BLM marches. Gunshots were fired in the Capitole, POTUS's message to deescalate started with election results denial, protestors brought down the flag and replaced it with a Trump flag. It's much more concerning than the buffalo guy fooling around. Reframing the chain of events to that single moment is missing the bigger picture.
tsimionescu 6y ago
This is a very poor take. There is a marked difference between meeting people half way and openness to alternative view points, and allowing a mob to attack and derail the proceedings of Congress with the express purpose of overturning the legal election results. This was a shameful display by the police charged with defending the rule of law in the USA, and even more than protesters, the police who plainly allowed this to happen must be investigated and tried. Whether those are the boots on the ground or the higher ups I have no idea, but this can't be left to stand. Given what we've seen tonight, this could have easily turned into a putsch attempt, and it would have been very hard to stop it once the mob was allowed inside the building. They could have taken senators and congressmen hostage, they could have forced them to overturn the elections in a mock session, they could have killed dissenters - it was only by luck that it turned out they were disorganized and essentially there for a stunt.
- o-__-o 6y ago
  Capitol police allowed selfies with them as protesters were leaving
  - zaroth 6y ago
    Good? People used to call this “deescalation” and considered it the prime example of how to deal with protesters. When protesters are taking selfies with the cops then something is clearing going right. On the other hand, an unarmed protestor was shot and killed, but almost certainly there will be no riots or sacking of small town centers in response. The Federal courthouse was under constant siege for weeks in Portland, but that was “mostly peaceful”. This on the other hand was clearly a “mob” according to NYT. I just want to see people be consistent with how they describe and respond to protesters regardless of the political affiliation of the protest. Relative to the scale of rioting throughout 2020 this was objectively pretty tame, minus the fatal shooting. At least you can say it wasn’t a targeted assassination unlike other cases last year.
    - yxwvut 6y ago
      'Objectively pretty tame'? That's a pretty rich. It's only 'tame' because of the police treated these (mostly white) protestors with kid gloves, and because the barricaded doors allowed a safe retreat of the congresspeople. Your portrayal of the shooting of a woman actively trying to smash into the floor of the senate with the senators and VPOTUS inside as equatable to police brutality is laughable. These people were trying (fruitlessly) to stage a violent subversion of democracy and openly threatened the highest elected officials in the nation.
jonathanstrange 6y ago
I think so, too. Openness is more important. But I have to say that the physical security before the Capitol building was laughable. There is a video of three policemen trying to hold a makeshift barricade against more than 50 protesters. Obviously, they failed. The bottom line is that the police appeared to be totally understaffed even though the protests had been announced for weeks and were entirely predictable.
- alkonaut 6y ago
  The charitable take is that it was human error. Bad planning. The conspiratorial one is that it was deliberate. The question in that case is on what level (leadership, or on the ground). I hope investigations will show this. Who raised the issue of too little staff? Who denied reinforcements? Was there a massive number of officers calling in sick that morning? Etc etc.
  - tsimionescu 6y ago
    I have stated this in other comments, but I feel it is extremely important. There is no rational way to attribute this to simple human error, given the overwhelming evidence of how protests on much more irrelevant topics, moments and locations are normally treated by US police. There can be no reasonable doubt that this was allowed to play out, with the few policemen stationed there being openly friendly with the crowd by some reports. The level where the decision to allow the protest to attack Congress was taken is of course up to the courts to investigate, but I feel it is disingenuous to claim that this isn't the most reasonable conclusion by far.
    - theklub 6y ago
      Just want to point out that police are friendly with protesters all the time and often take pictures with them even when they are anti police protests.
- tsimionescu 6y ago
  Openness is extremely important, but the rule of law is still more important. What we have seen last night was an attempt at mob rule, and it was almost obviously allowed by the police force whose duty it is to safeguard the security of the nation's most powerful institutions. This doesn't mean that the Capitol building should be turned into a fort. But there is a vast distance between being open in general on one hand, and allowing a crowd of people whose stated intent is to overthrow the legally confirmed the results of the presidential election to amass on the steps of Congress and to breach the building while the legislative is in session confirming those results at the federal level.
_pmf_ 6y ago
> One thought that comes to mind is that I'm sure the most heavily armed nation in the world could have gotten rid of these people in no time Some people might say the same about the store burners and looters.
- cinquemb 6y ago
  Yup… I'll prob come back after these groups final soulution'd each other… perhaps I may contract for a company or two that provides services to both of these types of groups for those ends… If people want to kill each other, best to give them weapons to do so and stay as far a way as possible…
cinquemb 6y ago
And I have a lot of family members still stateside who think things will get better with Kamela… whereas i left almost 5 years ago… good luck my fellow Americans… because its only going to get worse… Moral hazards abound… piper going to get paid…
guns_on_the_run 6y ago
> In the end, a guy in buffalo costume fooling around on the senate floor is better than puddles of blood. The police executed a lady who was trying to climb through a broken window in the building. There are photos and videos of her literally dying in puddle of her own blood. [0] https://heavy.com/news/ashli-babbit/ https://heavy.com/news/ashli-babbit/ [1] https://twitter.com/Ashli_Babbitt/status/1345125644888281088 https://twitter.com/Ashli_Babbitt/status/1345125644888281088
- saberdancer 6y ago
  As far as I can tell, there were police officers on the other side of the door (where Babbitt was). Police officer shouldn't have shot her. His life was not in danger. I'm against the storming of Capitol, but this type of shooting should not be allowed.
  - chefkoch 6y ago
    I think in this case it's not only about your life beeing in danger, try this at any milittary base and the chances of getting shot are also quite high i guess.
    - saberdancer 6y ago
      Yes, but the difference is here that the police obviously let the protestors inside the building. Once that happened, the police and protestors were mixed and there was no real power struggle. Police looks like they were keeping an eye, but no one was fighting. This guy who shot turned a situation that could have been handled with a baton into a deadly situation. He could have created a worse situation, imagine if a protestor had a gun behind this woman and a gunfight erupted. Completely unnecessary.
      - chefkoch 6y ago
        While i completely agree that this was all unnecessary and a complete fuckup (Trump not calling the national guard, police clearly had a shitty tactic) But i don't think you can hold this "let them in" up high. They didn't invite them in, they let them in because of fear of beeing overrun/escalation. If a mob is in front of your house and threatens to burn it down if you won't let them in, there is no claim you invited them in If you do out of fear. They should have blasted them of the stairs with watercannons, but idk what the plan was.
Lutger 6y ago
> a guy in buffalo costume fooling around on the senate floor Although this qanon leader made it seem ridiculous, the capitol was attacked by an armed mob, who used teargas and flash grenades to prevent the certification of the next President. A bomb was found and four people died. Somehow, this is not that bad? How are these people merely funny protesters and not insurgents or even terrorists? The funny guy broke laws that can land him at least 20 years in jail. Its weird seeing the lackluster police response after the secretive kidnappings, overwhelming force and use of chemical weapons against blm protesters.
- pjc50 6y ago
  Hang on, the mob had teargas and flashbangs?
Thlom 6y ago
I'm pretty sure security would have been a bit higher even in Brussels if armed nazis with a history of breaking into legislative chambers declared they would "march on the court house".
Lendal 6y ago
It's a lot more complicated than that. There is very real and powerful anti-democratic fervor over here. Hundreds of members of the House of Representatives are involved in it, and several members of the Senate also. One member was actually heard outside on a loudspeaker yesterday invoking Hitler, by name, as a virtuous figure. There is white-supremacist anti-government infiltration of the police involved, including the Capitol Police. These same white-supremacist anti-democracy people have even stormed a military base in recent years, and they were NOT met with lethal force in that instance either, so it's not just because the Capitol represents a symbol of democracy. It's a complicated dynamic over here, but that doesn't make it any less chilling. I live in Florida, and just a few minutes ago on the way to work this morning I passed a white commercial truck with a large commercial logo on the side. The logo reads "Confederate Electric, Inc." laid over a waving Confederate flag (which is a flag of treason and white supremacy.) Anti-government fervor is right in your face, and taken as a very normal and matter-of-fact way of life here now. Florida's Senator Rick Scott last night voted against allowing Pennsylvania the right to participate in representative democracy in voting for the new president. It's a very serious and very sad thing what's going on in America.
jrochkind1 6y ago
> but perhaps they didn't because of the symbolism of the location. I think there were a number of things going on, but one of the not to be discounted is that individual police officers probably had a lot of sympathy for the protestors. There are pictures of police officers taking selfies with protestors etc. They saw each other as sharing similar politics and backgrounds. Very different from the individual police officers attitudes toward Black Lives Matter protests. Note I am not saying it was some kind of conspiracy with orders from abovve, I am saying individual police sympathies in aggregate led to much increased tolerance. In many cases in the USA the cops are quite happy to create puddles of blood, for better or worse (and it's usually worse). Note I am also not saying they "should" have created puddles of blood here.
- bjtitus 6y ago
  I completely agree with this take. 85% of police officers voted for Tump in 2016. Just from personal experience, I've noticed a growing animosity from police pushing back on the reform movements happening across the country. I've heard officers refusing to be involved in psychiatric calls due to changes in use of force laws which could hold them personally accountable. Instead of working to find a legal solution, their attitude seems to be one of revenge and their actions a punitive measure on the electorate and government which chose to enact those laws. There is a culture of us vs. them that is being focused towards politicians and reformists. I hope it's not a pervasive one.
  - giarc 6y ago
    >85% of police officers voted for Tump in 2016. That's likely a national statistic. Remember, these are police in DC, a very liberal area.
    - robk 6y ago
      On police salary they live in Calvert or Charles or Fauquier Counties which are still oases of red.
    - jorblumesea 6y ago
dayvid 6y ago
Keep in mind that this happened while: - Members of the Senate - Members of the House of Representatives - The Vice President were in the building during an important legislative event. We can look back at this and say it a mostly harmless event, but what if one of the protesters was a deranged person or enemy agent with a deadly weapon or decided to start a fire or explosion in the capital? Even in state courthouses they won't allow you in before going through a metal detector. And this was before 9/11. And Americans are well aware of having to take off their shoes before entering their airport gate.
- retzkek 6y ago
  > what if one of the protesters was a deranged person or enemy agent with a deadly weapon This person clearly intended to do much more than just take a selfie: https://i.imgur.com/e2s7UXT.png https://i.imgur.com/e2s7UXT.png (description: a person dressed in black paramilitary gear with modified US flag insignia, possibly with a sidearm, clutching a handful of large zip ties, jumping over a rail in what appears to be the senate or house gallery)

by stef25 6y ago

kube-system 6y ago

As a kid, I walked right into the front doors of the US Capitol, down the hall, and into one of my representatives offices. (Without adult supervision too!) They were quite friendly. The building has security, of course, but it’s not like some kind of off-limits private building. https://www.visitthecapitol.gov/plan-visit/watching-congress-session https://www.visitthecapitol.gov/plan-visit/watching-congress... That being said, I have never been more embarrassed and scared for politics in this country than I have been today. These people really had no clue about the kind of damage they did today. It is looking like misinformation is the biggest plague of the Information Age.

Cthulhu_ 6y ago
It's not, but one, congress was in session, and two, they knew there was going to be a big group of agitated protestors outside. Compare how tight security was when there was a BLM protest there.
- kube-system 6y ago
  Oh yes, clearly today was not a normal day that people should be walking in the front door. And it should have been treated more seriously than it apparently was. I’m just saying that the place isn’t a fortress by default.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

koube 6y ago

There are many alternatives that are not "total anarchy" or "puddles of blood" or "fort knox". Obviously America tends to prefer the fort knox strategy[0], but there are other choices like staging police nearby[1]. [0]: https://www.slowboring.com/p/maga-mob https://www.slowboring.com/p/maga-mob (see picture of national guard on steps of Capitol) [1]: https://www.thedailybeast.com/capitol-police-were-poorly-prepared-for-riots-by-pro-trump-mob https://www.thedailybeast.com/capitol-police-were-poorly-pre...

stef25 6y ago
Yes, a serious error of judgement was made letting these people storm up the stairs. Hopefully cause of stupidity and not malice.
- tsimionescu 6y ago
  There is no way to attribute this to anything but malice. The police response was so wildly different from the response to any other protest we have seen in the past 10 years that it is laughable to even entertain the idea that it was a case of stupidity.

baybal2 6y ago

> There were exactly 2 (unarmed) "security guards" present who told my friend they obviously stood no chance if these people decided to charge. No government stands a chance if an any much significant part of population raises against it. I'm not even saying a majority. What we saw today in DC was not a big rally. A big rally would look like this: https://i.tribune.com.pk/media/images/Khadim-Rizvi-funeral-21605970670-0/Khadim-Rizvi-funeral-21605970670-0.jpeg https://i.tribune.com.pk/media/images/Khadim-Rizvi-funeral-2... and like that for a few more city blocks. Or like this: https://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/moscow1991/AP9103100617.jpg https://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/moscow1991/AP9103... Or this: https://static.toiimg.com/img/67604038/Master.jpg https://static.toiimg.com/img/67604038/Master.jpg Learning living along with the radicals is a good alternative to having a war with them.

buran77 6y ago
> Learning living along with the radicals is a good alternative to having a war with them. This is what most regimes and "leaders" don't understand. They think that if they were put/elected there by some people then those are the only ones they have to serve. They do not acknowledge that they should serve the country. As such the disenfranchised start to think that if the power isn't on their side, the complete opposite must be. They drift towards an extreme, whatever that may be since both left and right extremes are very closer to each other - they justify the same things for different reasons. Once enough are disenfranchised the power balance shifts. But the next to come in power will do the same, this time with the "moral" justification that the others deserve to be punished, swinging the pendulum further to the opposite side. If you repeat this cycle a few times you get to the pendulum's breaking point. A president with a terrible character to begin with will just fast track the pendulum in one swing. They will add fuel to the fire and watch it burn not only out of pleasure or frustration, but also ineptitude.
foolmeonce 6y ago
> Learning living along with the radicals is a good alternative to having a war with them. I think the original deal of public education was to establish a realistic way to do this. IMO the over focus on the shared benefit of raising income/GDP as the benefit has compromised the long term sustainability of the system.

rixrax 6y ago

In some ways it brought back old memories of storming of Stasi HQ in Eastern Berlin[0]. I couldn't find references to that effect, but I recall there was talk back then that among the first ones to breach the Stasi were people from the western intelligence agencies, who had a pretty good idea of where to go and what to grab. [0] https://www.dw.com/en/stasi-hq-storming-german-president-praises-democratic-act/a-52009115 https://www.dw.com/en/stasi-hq-storming-german-president-pra...

kace91 6y ago

I mean, if we're talking about symbolism, you might be right for "a guy in a buffalo costume", but the confederate flag was flown inside the capitol. For many people, the damage that causes to government feeling "theirs" is much, much higher than a violent incident, even more so if we compare it to the way recent protests have been handled.

1000units 6y ago
A dead woman on the floor with blood pooling out of her head sends a weaker message in this respect than an appropriately-decorated piece of cloth being raised? I suspect you may be a little too shaken by recent events to be thinking clearly. Thoughts and prayers, my friend.
- macawfish 6y ago
  That flag symbolizes millions of dead and generations of bitterness. It's very, very weighty.
  - 1000units 6y ago
    So does the American flag for a lot of people, that's why we need a military, right? Did you know this woman was a veteran, by the way? She swore an oath to protect that flag, not the confederate flag. Try reconciling this in your mind, maybe you'll understand what's happened better.
    - pjc50 6y ago
      Who was she and what were the circumstances of her death?
      - nerdponx 6y ago
        She appears to have been shot (maybe by a security guard?) while trying to break in through a window.
      - 6y ago

slezyr 6y ago

You know, it's not the first time the Capitol building has been stormed by the protestors. Before this, there was a BLM protest and they managed to hold the building just fine.

astrange 6y ago
They were being reinforced by mysterious federal forces then… which was bad, so we got rid of them. Last time’s problem was solved so hard it produced this time’s problem. The other issue is that reinforcements in DC are controlled by the President, who of course wanted this to happen so he could watch it on TV, so he didn’t mobilize any of them.
- Technically 6y ago
  The police also let the "protestors" in.
SamoyedFurFluff 6y ago
BLM never made it into the capitol or even the grounds. They built a large fence to keep them out.
- ryosuke 6y ago
  And? That's what should've happened yesterday too.
  - SamoyedFurFluff 6y ago
    But it didn’t. That’s what people are pointing out. All the stops pulled for BLM (so they’re clearly capable) and none of them pulled for this. Why?

Cthulhu_ 6y ago

> One thought that comes to mind is that I'm sure the most heavily armed nation in the world could have gotten rid of these people in no time, but perhaps they didn't because of the symbolism of the location. Oh no, the police let them through, there's clips showing they literally opened the gates, pictures of them taking selfies, etc. It's the "blue lives matter" subculture within those groups, where the police think they're on their side and the protestors think the police is on their side. The policemen involved should be fired and charged with dereliction of duty and conspiracy or something like that. Of course, there should have been a lot more (riot) police active as well, since it was known in advance it was going to be a bad protest.

Mauricebranagh 6y ago
Sickening when you consider the sacrifice of PC Keith Palmer who "un armed" stopped a knife wielding attacker attempting to breach the Houses of parliament.
alkonaut 6y ago
I hope it's investigated thuroughly. That said, I don't think that being apparently "nice" to protestors is necessarily a convincing proof that you are somehoe "letting it happen". If you are outnumbered and the situation isn't directly threatening, then it may be better to keep the situation from becoming threatening while you call for reinforcemens. Then the problem was that they were outnumbered to begin with, which could shift blame upwards. It's going to be obvious from investigating communications, whether reinforcements were called in, how quickly they were sent.

johnchristopher 6y ago

> One thought that comes to mind is that I'm sure the most heavily armed nation in the world could have gotten rid of these people in no time, but perhaps they didn't because of the symbolism of the location. > In the end, a guy in buffalo costume fooling around on the senate floor is better than puddles of blood. This statement is no longer true. My left leaning twitter feed has many references about how the police removed wheelchair bound protestors some years ago and references to lost eyes during BLM walks/riots and Jane Fonda's arrest on the steps of the Capitole and pictures of police officers in body armour waiting on the steps of the Capitole for BLM marches. Gunshots were fired in the Capitole, POTUS's message to deescalate started with election results denial, protestors brought down the flag and replaced it with a Trump flag. It's much more concerning than the buffalo guy fooling around. Reframing the chain of events to that single moment is missing the bigger picture.

tsimionescu 6y ago

This is a very poor take. There is a marked difference between meeting people half way and openness to alternative view points, and allowing a mob to attack and derail the proceedings of Congress with the express purpose of overturning the legal election results. This was a shameful display by the police charged with defending the rule of law in the USA, and even more than protesters, the police who plainly allowed this to happen must be investigated and tried. Whether those are the boots on the ground or the higher ups I have no idea, but this can't be left to stand. Given what we've seen tonight, this could have easily turned into a putsch attempt, and it would have been very hard to stop it once the mob was allowed inside the building. They could have taken senators and congressmen hostage, they could have forced them to overturn the elections in a mock session, they could have killed dissenters - it was only by luck that it turned out they were disorganized and essentially there for a stunt.

o-__-o 6y ago
Capitol police allowed selfies with them as protesters were leaving
- zaroth 6y ago
  Good? People used to call this “deescalation” and considered it the prime example of how to deal with protesters. When protesters are taking selfies with the cops then something is clearing going right. On the other hand, an unarmed protestor was shot and killed, but almost certainly there will be no riots or sacking of small town centers in response. The Federal courthouse was under constant siege for weeks in Portland, but that was “mostly peaceful”. This on the other hand was clearly a “mob” according to NYT. I just want to see people be consistent with how they describe and respond to protesters regardless of the political affiliation of the protest. Relative to the scale of rioting throughout 2020 this was objectively pretty tame, minus the fatal shooting. At least you can say it wasn’t a targeted assassination unlike other cases last year.
  - yxwvut 6y ago
    'Objectively pretty tame'? That's a pretty rich. It's only 'tame' because of the police treated these (mostly white) protestors with kid gloves, and because the barricaded doors allowed a safe retreat of the congresspeople. Your portrayal of the shooting of a woman actively trying to smash into the floor of the senate with the senators and VPOTUS inside as equatable to police brutality is laughable. These people were trying (fruitlessly) to stage a violent subversion of democracy and openly threatened the highest elected officials in the nation.

jonathanstrange 6y ago

I think so, too. Openness is more important. But I have to say that the physical security before the Capitol building was laughable. There is a video of three policemen trying to hold a makeshift barricade against more than 50 protesters. Obviously, they failed. The bottom line is that the police appeared to be totally understaffed even though the protests had been announced for weeks and were entirely predictable.

alkonaut 6y ago
The charitable take is that it was human error. Bad planning. The conspiratorial one is that it was deliberate. The question in that case is on what level (leadership, or on the ground). I hope investigations will show this. Who raised the issue of too little staff? Who denied reinforcements? Was there a massive number of officers calling in sick that morning? Etc etc.
- tsimionescu 6y ago
  I have stated this in other comments, but I feel it is extremely important. There is no rational way to attribute this to simple human error, given the overwhelming evidence of how protests on much more irrelevant topics, moments and locations are normally treated by US police. There can be no reasonable doubt that this was allowed to play out, with the few policemen stationed there being openly friendly with the crowd by some reports. The level where the decision to allow the protest to attack Congress was taken is of course up to the courts to investigate, but I feel it is disingenuous to claim that this isn't the most reasonable conclusion by far.
  - theklub 6y ago
    Just want to point out that police are friendly with protesters all the time and often take pictures with them even when they are anti police protests.
tsimionescu 6y ago
Openness is extremely important, but the rule of law is still more important. What we have seen last night was an attempt at mob rule, and it was almost obviously allowed by the police force whose duty it is to safeguard the security of the nation's most powerful institutions. This doesn't mean that the Capitol building should be turned into a fort. But there is a vast distance between being open in general on one hand, and allowing a crowd of people whose stated intent is to overthrow the legally confirmed the results of the presidential election to amass on the steps of Congress and to breach the building while the legislative is in session confirming those results at the federal level.

_pmf_ 6y ago

> One thought that comes to mind is that I'm sure the most heavily armed nation in the world could have gotten rid of these people in no time Some people might say the same about the store burners and looters.

cinquemb 6y ago
Yup… I'll prob come back after these groups final soulution'd each other… perhaps I may contract for a company or two that provides services to both of these types of groups for those ends… If people want to kill each other, best to give them weapons to do so and stay as far a way as possible…

cinquemb 6y ago

And I have a lot of family members still stateside who think things will get better with Kamela… whereas i left almost 5 years ago… good luck my fellow Americans… because its only going to get worse… Moral hazards abound… piper going to get paid…

guns_on_the_run 6y ago

> In the end, a guy in buffalo costume fooling around on the senate floor is better than puddles of blood. The police executed a lady who was trying to climb through a broken window in the building. There are photos and videos of her literally dying in puddle of her own blood. [0] https://heavy.com/news/ashli-babbit/ https://heavy.com/news/ashli-babbit/ [1] https://twitter.com/Ashli_Babbitt/status/1345125644888281088 https://twitter.com/Ashli_Babbitt/status/1345125644888281088

saberdancer 6y ago
As far as I can tell, there were police officers on the other side of the door (where Babbitt was). Police officer shouldn't have shot her. His life was not in danger. I'm against the storming of Capitol, but this type of shooting should not be allowed.
- chefkoch 6y ago
  I think in this case it's not only about your life beeing in danger, try this at any milittary base and the chances of getting shot are also quite high i guess.
  - saberdancer 6y ago
    Yes, but the difference is here that the police obviously let the protestors inside the building. Once that happened, the police and protestors were mixed and there was no real power struggle. Police looks like they were keeping an eye, but no one was fighting. This guy who shot turned a situation that could have been handled with a baton into a deadly situation. He could have created a worse situation, imagine if a protestor had a gun behind this woman and a gunfight erupted. Completely unnecessary.
    - chefkoch 6y ago
      While i completely agree that this was all unnecessary and a complete fuckup (Trump not calling the national guard, police clearly had a shitty tactic) But i don't think you can hold this "let them in" up high. They didn't invite them in, they let them in because of fear of beeing overrun/escalation. If a mob is in front of your house and threatens to burn it down if you won't let them in, there is no claim you invited them in If you do out of fear. They should have blasted them of the stairs with watercannons, but idk what the plan was.

Lutger 6y ago

> a guy in buffalo costume fooling around on the senate floor Although this qanon leader made it seem ridiculous, the capitol was attacked by an armed mob, who used teargas and flash grenades to prevent the certification of the next President. A bomb was found and four people died. Somehow, this is not that bad? How are these people merely funny protesters and not insurgents or even terrorists? The funny guy broke laws that can land him at least 20 years in jail. Its weird seeing the lackluster police response after the secretive kidnappings, overwhelming force and use of chemical weapons against blm protesters.

pjc50 6y ago
Hang on, the mob had teargas and flashbangs?

Thlom 6y ago

I'm pretty sure security would have been a bit higher even in Brussels if armed nazis with a history of breaking into legislative chambers declared they would "march on the court house".

Lendal 6y ago

It's a lot more complicated than that. There is very real and powerful anti-democratic fervor over here. Hundreds of members of the House of Representatives are involved in it, and several members of the Senate also. One member was actually heard outside on a loudspeaker yesterday invoking Hitler, by name, as a virtuous figure. There is white-supremacist anti-government infiltration of the police involved, including the Capitol Police. These same white-supremacist anti-democracy people have even stormed a military base in recent years, and they were NOT met with lethal force in that instance either, so it's not just because the Capitol represents a symbol of democracy. It's a complicated dynamic over here, but that doesn't make it any less chilling. I live in Florida, and just a few minutes ago on the way to work this morning I passed a white commercial truck with a large commercial logo on the side. The logo reads "Confederate Electric, Inc." laid over a waving Confederate flag (which is a flag of treason and white supremacy.) Anti-government fervor is right in your face, and taken as a very normal and matter-of-fact way of life here now. Florida's Senator Rick Scott last night voted against allowing Pennsylvania the right to participate in representative democracy in voting for the new president. It's a very serious and very sad thing what's going on in America.

jrochkind1 6y ago

> but perhaps they didn't because of the symbolism of the location. I think there were a number of things going on, but one of the not to be discounted is that individual police officers probably had a lot of sympathy for the protestors. There are pictures of police officers taking selfies with protestors etc. They saw each other as sharing similar politics and backgrounds. Very different from the individual police officers attitudes toward Black Lives Matter protests. Note I am not saying it was some kind of conspiracy with orders from abovve, I am saying individual police sympathies in aggregate led to much increased tolerance. In many cases in the USA the cops are quite happy to create puddles of blood, for better or worse (and it's usually worse). Note I am also not saying they "should" have created puddles of blood here.

bjtitus 6y ago
I completely agree with this take. 85% of police officers voted for Tump in 2016. Just from personal experience, I've noticed a growing animosity from police pushing back on the reform movements happening across the country. I've heard officers refusing to be involved in psychiatric calls due to changes in use of force laws which could hold them personally accountable. Instead of working to find a legal solution, their attitude seems to be one of revenge and their actions a punitive measure on the electorate and government which chose to enact those laws. There is a culture of us vs. them that is being focused towards politicians and reformists. I hope it's not a pervasive one.
- giarc 6y ago
  >85% of police officers voted for Tump in 2016. That's likely a national statistic. Remember, these are police in DC, a very liberal area.
  - robk 6y ago
    On police salary they live in Calvert or Charles or Fauquier Counties which are still oases of red.
  - jorblumesea 6y ago

dayvid 6y ago

Keep in mind that this happened while: - Members of the Senate - Members of the House of Representatives - The Vice President were in the building during an important legislative event. We can look back at this and say it a mostly harmless event, but what if one of the protesters was a deranged person or enemy agent with a deadly weapon or decided to start a fire or explosion in the capital? Even in state courthouses they won't allow you in before going through a metal detector. And this was before 9/11. And Americans are well aware of having to take off their shoes before entering their airport gate.

retzkek 6y ago
> what if one of the protesters was a deranged person or enemy agent with a deadly weapon This person clearly intended to do much more than just take a selfie: https://i.imgur.com/e2s7UXT.png https://i.imgur.com/e2s7UXT.png (description: a person dressed in black paramilitary gear with modified US flag insignia, possibly with a sidearm, clutching a handful of large zip ties, jumping over a rail in what appears to be the senate or house gallery)