5 ms·

I was really disappointed and disheartened. It showed great weakness. I recently watched the movie Olympus Has Fallen. We were just wanting a dumb action movie

by bmitc 6y ago

I was really disappointed and disheartened. It showed great weakness. I recently watched the movie Olympus Has Fallen. We were just wanting a dumb action movie to pass the time. The North Korean terrorists just basically walked in and took the White House. We were like, how stupid is that, no way that could really happen. And here today, we literally saw it happen. People took over one of our nation’s most important buildings with extremely high level people in it without a sweat, without resistance, and basically without repercussions. I remarked today to my family that I bet Russians and North Koreans were watching going, wait, we can just walk in? Of course they couldn’t because they aren’t white “Americans”. And all of this really paints a nasty picture of what happened today. It was a soup of treason, violence, white privilege, disgrace, sadness, and weakness. I mean, a bomb on the grounds was found and detonated by a bomb squad and people were still allowed to stay on the premises. I really could not believe how they could just take over the place. I even saw a video where police actually just opened the gates for them.

clintonb 6y ago
The bomb was found at RNC headquarters, a few blocks away from the Capitol, not the Capitol itself.
- bmitc 6y ago
  [An article I read said] There was an additional bomb also found on the Capitol grounds. Obviously this is a developing situation. And the details don’t actually matter to my point. Clear and present evidence to commit acts of domestic terrorism was available, and people were still allowed to loiter and vandalize as they pleased.
  - xienze 6y ago
    No, the DNC (well, it’s speculated). https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/06/us/politics/pipe-bomb-rnc.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/06/us/politics/pipe-bomb-rnc...
    - Shared404 6y ago
      Not a bomb per se, but there was someone near the Capitol with materials for Molotov cocktails.
      - pvfffghhr 6y ago
        Bottles and fuel? Isn’t the whole city full of people in possession of such materials? The whole country, even?
        wtallis 6y ago
        Those may be common items to have in cabinets at home. They're not common items to take along for a walk in the park, or a tour of a monument.
baybal2 6y ago
> The North Korean terrorists just basically walked in and took the White House. We were like, no way that could really happen. And here today, we literally saw it happen. The total strength of government building security in DC is around 2 battaglions. You think there is nobody who can bring 2000-3000 people to the rifle, and numerically overwhelm them? And it seems that not insubstantial numbers of DC security personnel did simply desert their posts. Commando paratroopers with heavy weapons, and moreover armour will leave no chances for a regular army unit, let alone civilian police.
- ben_w 6y ago
  I expect the security personnel to be trained and the mob to not be trained. I expect (given the consequences of allowing them in and prior use of lethal force against demonstrations by Americans in America) the security personnel to be ready, willing, and able to use lethal force to keep armed protestors out, even if the doors were open. I expect the doors to be strong enough to withstand anything short of an RPG. I do not expect security personnel to desert their posts in their own capital city.
  - baybal2 6y ago
    > I do not expect security personnel to desert their posts in their own capital city. To me, it felt they were quite demoralised.
  - stef25 6y ago
    > I do not expect security personnel to desert their posts in their own capital city. Surely that was out of concern for their own safety (to retreat can be a valid strategy) and / or not willing to open fire on US civilians in such a symbolic place.
    - pjc50 6y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_United_States_Capitol_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_United_States_Capitol_sho... ; I guess if there's just one civilian the symbolism of shooting them is fine.
roenxi 6y ago
> remarked today to my family that I bet Russians and North Koreans were watching going, wait, we can just walk in? The US Congress of of great symbolic and relatively little actual importance. If the North Korean military walked in to the Senate and gunned down everyone in it the outcomes would roughly be: US loses ~80 corrupt leaches. US loses ~20 great people. Northern part of the Korean peninsula becomes a glassy wasteland inhabited by cockroaches. Mobs of grumpy people routinely yell at US politicians, I've seen various protesters screaming politicians into a defensive corner. The BLM protests at the 2020 RNC convention jumps to mind as having scenes that were probably felt just as scary for the politicians involved (the treatment of Rand Paul jumped out at me as unpleasant). US citizens get to scream at their politicians an they frequently exercise that privilege. There isn't an obvious racial element to it.
- lostlogin 6y ago
  > The US Congress of of great symbolic and relatively little actual importance. Others disagree. Nearly half a billion was spent in total in the fight over the seat for Georgia. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/20/us/politics/georgia-senate-runoffs-ads.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/20/us/politics/georgia-senat...
  - dstick 6y ago
    I think the parent meant the physical building, not the institution.
    - roenxi 6y ago
      No, I mean the people in the institution. The spending in Georgia isn't because of ... whoever the candidates are, I don't know their names. It is to decide which party gets another sympathetic vote in decision making. The institution of Congress is critical. But the specific people in it at any time are important because of how they got there/who supported them on the way in and not because of who they are. They could be replaced and it wouldn't be a big issue, technically speaking. Practically there'd be huge consequences for whoever was stupid enough to disrespect the US Congress.
peteradio 6y ago
This isn't a game of capture the flag...
- anigbrowl 6y ago
  Honestly, it kind of is. Regardless of the legal and administrative elaborations, the psychological impact of whose flag is flying and who has custody of it are at least equally important.
mistermann 6y ago
> It showed great weakness. It did show great weakness, but be careful drawing conclusions from this observation, such as a presumption of actual weakness. As a commenter below notes: https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=25667558&goto=item%3Fid%3D25667251%2325667558 https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=25667558&goto=item%3Fi... >> Per the capitol police website they have 2,600 officers and a budget of $460 million. It honestly just ... didn't look like they were trying very hard. They managed to arrest what, 14 people? Compare that to the BLM protests on the west coast where unmarked vans of feds were literally rolling up and black bagging people off the street. USCP is charged with protecting Congress, and I think members of congress should be thinking hard about whether the police were complicit in what happened today. -- > We were just wanting a dumb action movie to pass the time. The North Korean terrorists just basically walked in and took the White House. We were like, how stupid is that, no way that could really happen. And here today, we literally saw it happen. Technically, you did not see that happen - the people that walked in were not North Korean terrorists. This distinction may be important, or it may not. > People took over one of our nation’s most important buildings with extremely high level people in it without a sweat, without resistance, and basically without repercussions. I remarked today to my family that I bet Russians and North Koreans were watching going, wait, we can just walk in? I would bet my money that they're thinking something else entirely, something more along the lines of: Now isn't this an interesting development! What is the range of plausible explanations for this unusual and counter-intuitve series of events, that took place at one of the most strategic locations in America's capital, on a very special day, when large quantities of protesters were known (in advance) to be present, and violence was expected? Is this strange situation purely organic, or might something more interesting be going on?. Thirty years ago I expect American journalists would be asking similar questions. Unfortunately, the only place you are likely to find such curiosity and diversity of thought in modern America is in conspiracy theory forums - but you know what they imply(!) (over, and over, and over) about them: "If they propose an idea, or explanation for something, it should be considered to be false". > Of course they couldn’t because they aren’t white “Americans”. And all of this really paints a nasty picture of what happened today. It was a soup of treason, violence, white privilege, disgrace, sadness, and weakness. Technically, this is just your heuristic prediction of what happened, and what it is. What really happened, what it really is, is unknown (to the general public). > I really could not believe how they could just take over the place. I even saw a video where police actually just opened the gates for them. I don't find it hard to believe at all. I don't even find it mildly surprising - but I do find it extremely interesting. So interesting that if any journalists bothered to look into it, I'd be tempted to read such articles to see what they come up with. I wonder if any such articles will be written, or if this remarkable phenomenon will be universally (by all major media outlets) attributed to "white privilege" or some such simplistic, evidence-free answer. Let's see what CNN has to say about this performance: https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/07/politics/capitol-police-reaction-details/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/07/politics/capitol-police-react... In this article, we have observations that security was obviously lax despite it being "...known for weeks that President Donald Trump was promoting a rally he said was aimed at preventing the certification of Joe Biden's win." What we do not have here, is anyone asking questions about why security was so lax. FTA: - Lawmakers say they are perplexed at the lack of preparedness among law enforcement given that it had been known for weeks that President Donald Trump was promoting a rally he said was aimed at preventing the certification of Joe Biden's win. Rep. Mike Quigley, an Illinois Democrat who was locked in the House chamber during an armed standoff between Capitol Police and a rioter, praised the officers who were in the building that put their lives on the line to protect the lawmakers. But Quigley made clear that they were outnumbered and law enforcement was under prepared. "The Capitol Police I was around did an amazing job under difficult circumstances," Quigley told CNN. "My concern wasn't with how valiant the Capitol Police were. It was that an hour before the debate started, I looked at the throngs of people surrounding different sections of the Capitol -- and said, we don't have enough security." Quigley added: "I'm no expert in security, but you can tell we were out-manned in an hour before the debate," referring to Congress' proceedings to certify Biden's win. -- https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/06/politics/capitol-riots-what-happened/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/06/politics/capitol-riots-what-h... In this article we have more observations of unusual anomalies. And again, what we do not have here, is anyone asking questions about why security was so lax. FTA: - The chaotic federal response to the Trump rally Wednesday, which was overwhelmed by rioters who stormed the US Capitol, stood in sharp contrast to the heavily-armed presence of thousands of federal authorities during summer protests in Washington, DC, following the police killing of George Floyd. - The law enforcement response that allowed a typically heavily secured federal landmark to fall under attack, with rioters breaking through windows and into lawmakers' offices and gathering places, came from a hesitant federal bureaucracy after early assurances from DC and Capitol law enforcement agencies. Agencies that had law enforcement that could help Wednesday waited to be asked. "It was a mess. Nobody was communicating. No one knew what we were supposed to be doing there," said one federal law enforcement officer who was dispatched to the Capitol. - Justice Department officials were in charge of coordinating the federal agencies and US National Guard response ahead of President Donald Trump's rally near the Washington Monument. Some organizers publicly said they planned to conduct a "wild" march to Capitol Hill as the joint session of Congress met to certify President-elect Joe Biden as the next president. But agencies were waiting to be asked by other authorities to help -- even as Trump's election protest unraveled. - "Law enforcement failed to understand what the likelihood of this threat was," CNN law enforcement analyst Jonathan Wackrow, a former USSS agent, said of the day's events, though "no one should be surprised that this was attempted," given Trump attorney Rudy Giuliani's comments at the rally earlier in the day that this should be a "trial by combat." "There should have been a wall of law enforcement," Wackrow said. Department of Homeland Security spokesman Alexei Woltornist said the agency was running a "virtual situation room" to track communication between agencies, but was "not tracking any active threats." US Customs and Border Protection, a law enforcement agency under the Department of Homeland Security, had dozens of personnel prepared if needed. - As for the Justice Department, acting Attorney General Jeffrey Rosen deployed more than 300 agents and officers from the FBI, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and the US Marshals Service, to assist the Capitol Police. But the Capitol Police had already lost control. Some of those deployments came almost an hour after the mob put the Capitol into lockdown. - "By the time the Capitol Police asked for help, the crowd was already inside the building," another federal law enforcement official said. - After criticism from Washington, DC, municipal officials over the heavy-handed response during the summer Black Lives Matter protests, federal authorities had a visibly lighter presence for the Trump rally. - Two federal law enforcement officials said Capitol Police assured Justice officials that they were prepared for the rally, particularly since the Capitol grounds are already barricaded in preparation for the Inauguration ceremonies in two weeks.

by bmitc 6y ago

clintonb 6y ago

The bomb was found at RNC headquarters, a few blocks away from the Capitol, not the Capitol itself.

bmitc 6y ago
[An article I read said] There was an additional bomb also found on the Capitol grounds. Obviously this is a developing situation. And the details don’t actually matter to my point. Clear and present evidence to commit acts of domestic terrorism was available, and people were still allowed to loiter and vandalize as they pleased.
- xienze 6y ago
  No, the DNC (well, it’s speculated). https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/06/us/politics/pipe-bomb-rnc.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/06/us/politics/pipe-bomb-rnc...
  - Shared404 6y ago
    Not a bomb per se, but there was someone near the Capitol with materials for Molotov cocktails.
    - pvfffghhr 6y ago
      Bottles and fuel? Isn’t the whole city full of people in possession of such materials? The whole country, even?
      - wtallis 6y ago
        Those may be common items to have in cabinets at home. They're not common items to take along for a walk in the park, or a tour of a monument.

baybal2 6y ago

> The North Korean terrorists just basically walked in and took the White House. We were like, no way that could really happen. And here today, we literally saw it happen. The total strength of government building security in DC is around 2 battaglions. You think there is nobody who can bring 2000-3000 people to the rifle, and numerically overwhelm them? And it seems that not insubstantial numbers of DC security personnel did simply desert their posts. Commando paratroopers with heavy weapons, and moreover armour will leave no chances for a regular army unit, let alone civilian police.

ben_w 6y ago
I expect the security personnel to be trained and the mob to not be trained. I expect (given the consequences of allowing them in and prior use of lethal force against demonstrations by Americans in America) the security personnel to be ready, willing, and able to use lethal force to keep armed protestors out, even if the doors were open. I expect the doors to be strong enough to withstand anything short of an RPG. I do not expect security personnel to desert their posts in their own capital city.
- baybal2 6y ago
  > I do not expect security personnel to desert their posts in their own capital city. To me, it felt they were quite demoralised.
- stef25 6y ago
  > I do not expect security personnel to desert their posts in their own capital city. Surely that was out of concern for their own safety (to retreat can be a valid strategy) and / or not willing to open fire on US civilians in such a symbolic place.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_United_States_Capitol_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_United_States_Capitol_sho... ; I guess if there's just one civilian the symbolism of shooting them is fine.

roenxi 6y ago

> remarked today to my family that I bet Russians and North Koreans were watching going, wait, we can just walk in? The US Congress of of great symbolic and relatively little actual importance. If the North Korean military walked in to the Senate and gunned down everyone in it the outcomes would roughly be: US loses ~80 corrupt leaches. US loses ~20 great people. Northern part of the Korean peninsula becomes a glassy wasteland inhabited by cockroaches. Mobs of grumpy people routinely yell at US politicians, I've seen various protesters screaming politicians into a defensive corner. The BLM protests at the 2020 RNC convention jumps to mind as having scenes that were probably felt just as scary for the politicians involved (the treatment of Rand Paul jumped out at me as unpleasant). US citizens get to scream at their politicians an they frequently exercise that privilege. There isn't an obvious racial element to it.

lostlogin 6y ago
> The US Congress of of great symbolic and relatively little actual importance. Others disagree. Nearly half a billion was spent in total in the fight over the seat for Georgia. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/20/us/politics/georgia-senate-runoffs-ads.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/20/us/politics/georgia-senat...
- dstick 6y ago
  I think the parent meant the physical building, not the institution.
  - roenxi 6y ago
    No, I mean the people in the institution. The spending in Georgia isn't because of ... whoever the candidates are, I don't know their names. It is to decide which party gets another sympathetic vote in decision making. The institution of Congress is critical. But the specific people in it at any time are important because of how they got there/who supported them on the way in and not because of who they are. They could be replaced and it wouldn't be a big issue, technically speaking. Practically there'd be huge consequences for whoever was stupid enough to disrespect the US Congress.

peteradio 6y ago

This isn't a game of capture the flag...

anigbrowl 6y ago
Honestly, it kind of is. Regardless of the legal and administrative elaborations, the psychological impact of whose flag is flying and who has custody of it are at least equally important.

mistermann 6y ago

> It showed great weakness. It did show great weakness, but be careful drawing conclusions from this observation, such as a presumption of actual weakness. As a commenter below notes: https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=25667558&goto=item%3Fid%3D25667251%2325667558 https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=25667558&goto=item%3Fi... >> Per the capitol police website they have 2,600 officers and a budget of $460 million. It honestly just ... didn't look like they were trying very hard. They managed to arrest what, 14 people? Compare that to the BLM protests on the west coast where unmarked vans of feds were literally rolling up and black bagging people off the street. USCP is charged with protecting Congress, and I think members of congress should be thinking hard about whether the police were complicit in what happened today. -- > We were just wanting a dumb action movie to pass the time. The North Korean terrorists just basically walked in and took the White House. We were like, how stupid is that, no way that could really happen. And here today, we literally saw it happen. Technically, you did not see that happen - the people that walked in were not North Korean terrorists. This distinction may be important, or it may not. > People took over one of our nation’s most important buildings with extremely high level people in it without a sweat, without resistance, and basically without repercussions. I remarked today to my family that I bet Russians and North Koreans were watching going, wait, we can just walk in? I would bet my money that they're thinking something else entirely, something more along the lines of: Now isn't this an interesting development! What is the range of plausible explanations for this unusual and counter-intuitve series of events, that took place at one of the most strategic locations in America's capital, on a very special day, when large quantities of protesters were known (in advance) to be present, and violence was expected? Is this strange situation purely organic, or might something more interesting be going on?. Thirty years ago I expect American journalists would be asking similar questions. Unfortunately, the only place you are likely to find such curiosity and diversity of thought in modern America is in conspiracy theory forums - but you know what they imply(!) (over, and over, and over) about them: "If they propose an idea, or explanation for something, it should be considered to be false". > Of course they couldn’t because they aren’t white “Americans”. And all of this really paints a nasty picture of what happened today. It was a soup of treason, violence, white privilege, disgrace, sadness, and weakness. Technically, this is just your heuristic prediction of what happened, and what it is. What really happened, what it really is, is unknown (to the general public). > I really could not believe how they could just take over the place. I even saw a video where police actually just opened the gates for them. I don't find it hard to believe at all. I don't even find it mildly surprising - but I do find it extremely interesting. So interesting that if any journalists bothered to look into it, I'd be tempted to read such articles to see what they come up with. I wonder if any such articles will be written, or if this remarkable phenomenon will be universally (by all major media outlets) attributed to "white privilege" or some such simplistic, evidence-free answer. Let's see what CNN has to say about this performance: https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/07/politics/capitol-police-reaction-details/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/07/politics/capitol-police-react... In this article, we have observations that security was obviously lax despite it being "...known for weeks that President Donald Trump was promoting a rally he said was aimed at preventing the certification of Joe Biden's win." What we do not have here, is anyone asking questions about why security was so lax. FTA: - Lawmakers say they are perplexed at the lack of preparedness among law enforcement given that it had been known for weeks that President Donald Trump was promoting a rally he said was aimed at preventing the certification of Joe Biden's win. Rep. Mike Quigley, an Illinois Democrat who was locked in the House chamber during an armed standoff between Capitol Police and a rioter, praised the officers who were in the building that put their lives on the line to protect the lawmakers. But Quigley made clear that they were outnumbered and law enforcement was under prepared. "The Capitol Police I was around did an amazing job under difficult circumstances," Quigley told CNN. "My concern wasn't with how valiant the Capitol Police were. It was that an hour before the debate started, I looked at the throngs of people surrounding different sections of the Capitol -- and said, we don't have enough security." Quigley added: "I'm no expert in security, but you can tell we were out-manned in an hour before the debate," referring to Congress' proceedings to certify Biden's win. -- https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/06/politics/capitol-riots-what-happened/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/06/politics/capitol-riots-what-h... In this article we have more observations of unusual anomalies. And again, what we do not have here, is anyone asking questions about why security was so lax. FTA: - The chaotic federal response to the Trump rally Wednesday, which was overwhelmed by rioters who stormed the US Capitol, stood in sharp contrast to the heavily-armed presence of thousands of federal authorities during summer protests in Washington, DC, following the police killing of George Floyd. - The law enforcement response that allowed a typically heavily secured federal landmark to fall under attack, with rioters breaking through windows and into lawmakers' offices and gathering places, came from a hesitant federal bureaucracy after early assurances from DC and Capitol law enforcement agencies. Agencies that had law enforcement that could help Wednesday waited to be asked. "It was a mess. Nobody was communicating. No one knew what we were supposed to be doing there," said one federal law enforcement officer who was dispatched to the Capitol. - Justice Department officials were in charge of coordinating the federal agencies and US National Guard response ahead of President Donald Trump's rally near the Washington Monument. Some organizers publicly said they planned to conduct a "wild" march to Capitol Hill as the joint session of Congress met to certify President-elect Joe Biden as the next president. But agencies were waiting to be asked by other authorities to help -- even as Trump's election protest unraveled. - "Law enforcement failed to understand what the likelihood of this threat was," CNN law enforcement analyst Jonathan Wackrow, a former USSS agent, said of the day's events, though "no one should be surprised that this was attempted," given Trump attorney Rudy Giuliani's comments at the rally earlier in the day that this should be a "trial by combat." "There should have been a wall of law enforcement," Wackrow said. Department of Homeland Security spokesman Alexei Woltornist said the agency was running a "virtual situation room" to track communication between agencies, but was "not tracking any active threats." US Customs and Border Protection, a law enforcement agency under the Department of Homeland Security, had dozens of personnel prepared if needed. - As for the Justice Department, acting Attorney General Jeffrey Rosen deployed more than 300 agents and officers from the FBI, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and the US Marshals Service, to assist the Capitol Police. But the Capitol Police had already lost control. Some of those deployments came almost an hour after the mob put the Capitol into lockdown. - "By the time the Capitol Police asked for help, the crowd was already inside the building," another federal law enforcement official said. - After criticism from Washington, DC, municipal officials over the heavy-handed response during the summer Black Lives Matter protests, federal authorities had a visibly lighter presence for the Trump rally. - Two federal law enforcement officials said Capitol Police assured Justice officials that they were prepared for the rally, particularly since the Capitol grounds are already barricaded in preparation for the Inauguration ceremonies in two weeks.