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What is it that you think happened here? Like specifically how would this fraud work? The ballots have all been accounted for, an investigation confirmed no bo

by eli 6y ago

What is it that you think happened here? Like specifically how would this fraud work? The ballots have all been accounted for, an investigation confirmed no boxes were added or removed, and all the ballots in Georgia were subsequently audited and then recounted twice. Here is a slightly better link that further links to some source documents including that state investigators testimony (since this whole thing of course was already considered and rejected by a court) https://www.factcheck.org/2020/12/video-doesnt-show-suitcases-of-illegal-ballots-in-georgia/ https://www.factcheck.org/2020/12/video-doesnt-show-suitcase... Do you think the investigators report would contradict their own testimony? Not that it should matter, but all the county and state election officials involved are Republicans too.

chordalkeyboard 6y ago
> What is it that you think happened here? Like specifically how would this fraud work? [0] > The ballots have all been accounted for, an investigation confirmed no boxes were added or removed, and all the ballots in Georgia were subsequently audited and then recounted twice. Can you link to the report of this investigation? How did they determine that no ballots were added? What is the chain of custody for the ballots that were removed from under the table? > Here is a slightly better link >> Pick theorized that the machines in the room could have totaled “18,000 ballots.” (Biden won the state by less than 12,000 votes.) But that’s wrong, according to the state election board monitor who was in the room as they counted. One of the guys implicated in the alleged fraud says its wouldn't have been enough to change the result. Did they attempt to verify this statement? >> The investigation remains open. Interesting how that works. They're confident enough that there's not anything there that they're willing to make public statements, but they're not willing to close the investigation and issue a report so people's concerns can be alleviated. > Do you think the investigators report would contradict their own testimony? Its possible but its more likely it would show how well (or not) the claims were investigated and present the evidence that was used to substantiate or reject the claims. The affidavit doesn't present any evidence other than the testimony of the investigator (who wasn't present at the incident) and is therefore meaningfully contradicted by the testimony of people who were there. > Not that it should matter, but all the county and state election officials involved are Republicans too. That's correct, it shouldn't matter and it does not matter. [0] https://ballotpedia.org/Ballot_stuffing https://ballotpedia.org/Ballot_stuffing
- eli 6y ago
  “Ballot stuffing” would require a lot more than sneaking in a suitcase of ballots which, to be clear, video surveillance shows is NOT what happened here. The number of ballots needs to match the number of votes cast according to the voter rolls. Is your theory that someone requested 18,000 ballots to registered voters at 18,000 different addresses and then returned them with matching signatures and also somehow ensured that none of them tried to vote themselves, which would have been immediately flagged? In all seriousness I think you should volunteer to be an observer for the next election and you will see how crazy this sounds.
  - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
    > “Ballot stuffing” would require a lot more than sneaking in a suitcase of ballots Actually it would not require more. Sneaking in ballots that do not each correspond to one legal voter's actual vote would be technically and functionally sufficient. > which, to be clear, video surveillance shows is NOT what happened here. Can you refer to the chain of custody that provides evidence that these are legal ballots? Can you share the part of the video that proves these are legal ballots? > The number of ballots needs to match the number of votes cast according to the voter rolls. I'd need to see how these numbers were verified and what oversight was present. These ballots could have been added to the entries on the voter rolls when they were introduced into the counting facility. Without a proper chain of custody, we don't know. With suspicious behavior on film, we should investigate. > Is your theory that someone requested 18,000 ballots to registered voters at 18,000 different addresses and then returned them with matching signatures and also somehow ensured that none of them tried to vote themselves, which would have been immediately flagged? No, my "theory" is that the chain of custody for these ballots (the ones hidden under the table and counted in the middle of the night sans (R) observers) has not been presented as evidence, therefore it is normal for people to wonder if they are legitimate ballots. I don't need to theorize anything else in order to have legitimate concerns about election integrity. > also somehow ensured that none of them tried to vote themselves, which would have been immediately flagged? flagging doesn't do much when the flags are dismissed and the suspicious conduct explained as "just normal activity." > In all seriousness I think you should volunteer to be an observer for the next election and you will see how crazy this sounds. I think it would drive me nuts to witness misconduct, report it, swear to it in an affidavit, then hear three months of people denying my personal experience on the basis of claims by talking heads. > how crazy this sounds. There are a lot of disturbing things about election 2020, but somehow one of the worst is this attitude that I'm crazy if I think someone might do something illegal or unethical to sway an election, or am not convinced by the evidence-free attestations of persons who seem unable to entertain another person's perspective.
thu2111 6y ago
The video shows a block of ballots being scanned multiple times. There are other YT videos with close-ups showing this, like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G48ywNxVSfM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G48ywNxVSfM So here's how the fraud works: 1. Take a pile of ballots that you are very sure are voting for Biden. 2. Hide them so they don't get counted. 3. Get rid of the monitors by telling them everyone is going home for the night. 4. Start passing the opened ballots through the counting machines multiple times. This would result in the number of ballots not matching the number of voters, but, there are lots of allegations of that happening.
- Jochim 6y ago
  For this to have happened they'd have to have managed to do this on the initial count and all subsequent recounts, under observation by three different parties of interest and maintained a relatively consistent final number of votes.
  - thu2111 6y ago
    The other video discussed (see my comment elsewhere in this thread) shows a vote counting coordinator telling re-counters/auditors to ignore duplicated signatures. They're literally asking her, when can we report this fraud we found, and she's telling them to just keep counting because it's "not their role" to ask such questions. So how much integrity did the recounts have? After all the video seems to show a conspiracy with multiple people involved to break the counting process: it's not like it's showing one person. I dunno. I agree it seems unlikely that this sort of thing can have swung the vote by such a huge amount - Trump still lost, for obvious reasons. But the USA has a massive problem here. It's not sufficient for a vote to be roughly correct, probably, hopefully. Election integrity is critical. It has to be seen to be unquestionably correct for democracy to work. When there are so many people swearing formally in affidavits that they saw fraud, and there is CCTV footage of blatantly very suspicious behaviours running around online, it's not a big surprise that trust in the process becomes dangerously undermined. To many people from Europe, me included, it seems bizarre and crazy that something as basic as voter ID checking has been derailed by accusations of racism (of all things). How can people trust the voting system if there's not constant efforts made to maintain its integrity? Trump is being blamed for his rhetoric now, rightfully so, but Biden's rhetoric that COVID made it too dangerous to go to voting booths and everyone should do mail-in voting seems equally dangerous to me. Everyone knows mail voting has much bigger problems with fraud than in person voting, and a quick glance at the US test-positive curves shows that the election appears to have made no difference at all, even though plenty of Trump voters turned out in person. His warnings of medical disaster if people voted physically were wrong, but have now created an environment in which Trump can convince many people that the voting process lacked integrity. Exceptionally dangerous and in no way worth it: regardless of how bad COVID is in the USA (much worse than elsewhere it seems), large-scale civil unrest would be far worse.

by eli 6y ago

chordalkeyboard 6y ago

> What is it that you think happened here? Like specifically how would this fraud work? [0] > The ballots have all been accounted for, an investigation confirmed no boxes were added or removed, and all the ballots in Georgia were subsequently audited and then recounted twice. Can you link to the report of this investigation? How did they determine that no ballots were added? What is the chain of custody for the ballots that were removed from under the table? > Here is a slightly better link >> Pick theorized that the machines in the room could have totaled “18,000 ballots.” (Biden won the state by less than 12,000 votes.) But that’s wrong, according to the state election board monitor who was in the room as they counted. One of the guys implicated in the alleged fraud says its wouldn't have been enough to change the result. Did they attempt to verify this statement? >> The investigation remains open. Interesting how that works. They're confident enough that there's not anything there that they're willing to make public statements, but they're not willing to close the investigation and issue a report so people's concerns can be alleviated. > Do you think the investigators report would contradict their own testimony? Its possible but its more likely it would show how well (or not) the claims were investigated and present the evidence that was used to substantiate or reject the claims. The affidavit doesn't present any evidence other than the testimony of the investigator (who wasn't present at the incident) and is therefore meaningfully contradicted by the testimony of people who were there. > Not that it should matter, but all the county and state election officials involved are Republicans too. That's correct, it shouldn't matter and it does not matter. [0] https://ballotpedia.org/Ballot_stuffing https://ballotpedia.org/Ballot_stuffing

eli 6y ago
“Ballot stuffing” would require a lot more than sneaking in a suitcase of ballots which, to be clear, video surveillance shows is NOT what happened here. The number of ballots needs to match the number of votes cast according to the voter rolls. Is your theory that someone requested 18,000 ballots to registered voters at 18,000 different addresses and then returned them with matching signatures and also somehow ensured that none of them tried to vote themselves, which would have been immediately flagged? In all seriousness I think you should volunteer to be an observer for the next election and you will see how crazy this sounds.
- chordalkeyboard 6y ago
  > “Ballot stuffing” would require a lot more than sneaking in a suitcase of ballots Actually it would not require more. Sneaking in ballots that do not each correspond to one legal voter's actual vote would be technically and functionally sufficient. > which, to be clear, video surveillance shows is NOT what happened here. Can you refer to the chain of custody that provides evidence that these are legal ballots? Can you share the part of the video that proves these are legal ballots? > The number of ballots needs to match the number of votes cast according to the voter rolls. I'd need to see how these numbers were verified and what oversight was present. These ballots could have been added to the entries on the voter rolls when they were introduced into the counting facility. Without a proper chain of custody, we don't know. With suspicious behavior on film, we should investigate. > Is your theory that someone requested 18,000 ballots to registered voters at 18,000 different addresses and then returned them with matching signatures and also somehow ensured that none of them tried to vote themselves, which would have been immediately flagged? No, my "theory" is that the chain of custody for these ballots (the ones hidden under the table and counted in the middle of the night sans (R) observers) has not been presented as evidence, therefore it is normal for people to wonder if they are legitimate ballots. I don't need to theorize anything else in order to have legitimate concerns about election integrity. > also somehow ensured that none of them tried to vote themselves, which would have been immediately flagged? flagging doesn't do much when the flags are dismissed and the suspicious conduct explained as "just normal activity." > In all seriousness I think you should volunteer to be an observer for the next election and you will see how crazy this sounds. I think it would drive me nuts to witness misconduct, report it, swear to it in an affidavit, then hear three months of people denying my personal experience on the basis of claims by talking heads. > how crazy this sounds. There are a lot of disturbing things about election 2020, but somehow one of the worst is this attitude that I'm crazy if I think someone might do something illegal or unethical to sway an election, or am not convinced by the evidence-free attestations of persons who seem unable to entertain another person's perspective.

thu2111 6y ago

The video shows a block of ballots being scanned multiple times. There are other YT videos with close-ups showing this, like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G48ywNxVSfM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G48ywNxVSfM So here's how the fraud works: 1. Take a pile of ballots that you are very sure are voting for Biden. 2. Hide them so they don't get counted. 3. Get rid of the monitors by telling them everyone is going home for the night. 4. Start passing the opened ballots through the counting machines multiple times. This would result in the number of ballots not matching the number of voters, but, there are lots of allegations of that happening.

Jochim 6y ago
For this to have happened they'd have to have managed to do this on the initial count and all subsequent recounts, under observation by three different parties of interest and maintained a relatively consistent final number of votes.
- thu2111 6y ago
  The other video discussed (see my comment elsewhere in this thread) shows a vote counting coordinator telling re-counters/auditors to ignore duplicated signatures. They're literally asking her, when can we report this fraud we found, and she's telling them to just keep counting because it's "not their role" to ask such questions. So how much integrity did the recounts have? After all the video seems to show a conspiracy with multiple people involved to break the counting process: it's not like it's showing one person. I dunno. I agree it seems unlikely that this sort of thing can have swung the vote by such a huge amount - Trump still lost, for obvious reasons. But the USA has a massive problem here. It's not sufficient for a vote to be roughly correct, probably, hopefully. Election integrity is critical. It has to be seen to be unquestionably correct for democracy to work. When there are so many people swearing formally in affidavits that they saw fraud, and there is CCTV footage of blatantly very suspicious behaviours running around online, it's not a big surprise that trust in the process becomes dangerously undermined. To many people from Europe, me included, it seems bizarre and crazy that something as basic as voter ID checking has been derailed by accusations of racism (of all things). How can people trust the voting system if there's not constant efforts made to maintain its integrity? Trump is being blamed for his rhetoric now, rightfully so, but Biden's rhetoric that COVID made it too dangerous to go to voting booths and everyone should do mail-in voting seems equally dangerous to me. Everyone knows mail voting has much bigger problems with fraud than in person voting, and a quick glance at the US test-positive curves shows that the election appears to have made no difference at all, even though plenty of Trump voters turned out in person. His warnings of medical disaster if people voted physically were wrong, but have now created an environment in which Trump can convince many people that the voting process lacked integrity. Exceptionally dangerous and in no way worth it: regardless of how bad COVID is in the USA (much worse than elsewhere it seems), large-scale civil unrest would be far worse.