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> and statistical anomalies that suggest the election wasn't conducted properly I have yet to see any strong evidence that the election wasn't conducted proper

> and statistical anomalies that suggest the election wasn't conducted properly I have yet to see any strong evidence that the election wasn't conducted properly. I have see a lot of people on HN make vague statements along the lines of "there are things that suggest that some shady things may have taken place". Every one of these statements was unsourced, and carried a general subtext that any claim of fraud automatically deserved attention and belief, no matter how little evidence was provided, and that the burden on proof should lie on people refuting these claims. I usually want to assume good faith, but this is really hard here. You obviously can't say "Bill Gates sent assassins kill my parents" and, when ask with any evidence that Gates did this or that your parents are even dead, complain that people aren't taking the Bill Gates threat seriously enough. The burden of proof is on you for making extraordinary claims. The claims of widespread fraud should require extraordinary evidence as well, and there really hasn't been any.

chordalkeyboard 6y ago
> I have yet to see any strong evidence that the election wasn't conducted properly. Well have you seen any evidence at all? What evidence would you expect to see and where have you looked? > I have see a lot of people on HN make vague statements along the lines of "there are things that suggest that some shady things may have taken place". Every one of these statements was unsourced, and carried a general subtext that any claim of fraud automatically deserved attention and belief, no matter how little evidence was provided, and that the burden on proof should lie on people refuting these claims. Why didn't they just link to [0]? > The burden of proof is on you for making extraordinary claims. The claims of widespread fraud should require extraordinary evidence as well, and there really hasn't been any. Well I think its extraordinary to claim (without evidence) that an adversarial process with high stakes and poor process controls was not corrupted. [0] https://apelbaum.wordpress.com/2020/12/03/the-georgia-ballot-underground-railroad/ https://apelbaum.wordpress.com/2020/12/03/the-georgia-ballot...
- freeone3000 6y ago
  Most people, me included, would require further evidence of fraud than ballot counters counting ballots. That article has a lot of deep-level evidence of verifying the ballot counters are, in fact ballot counters, but mere allegations that they were doing anything unusual.
  - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
    > Most people, me included, would require further evidence of fraud than ballot counters counting ballots. Perhaps you're right and this is a sign that democracy is fundamentally broken. If people aren't able to understand that many forms of election compromise (e.g. ballot stuffing) are indistinguishable from a normal election without properly respected controls and audits. > but mere allegations that they were doing anything unusual. There are allegations coupled with evidence to support them, which is what is necessary to make an accusation that can be investigated.
    - 8note 6y ago
      As with 2016, the time to investigate them is after the election under the next legislature. Thus why trump got to keep his presidency in 2016
    - freeone3000 6y ago
      >Perhaps you're right and this is a sign that democracy is fundamentally broken. If people aren't able to understand that many forms of election compromise (e.g. ballot stuffing) are indistinguishable from a normal election without properly respected controls and audits. Maybe faith in the process should be shaken, but a volatile transition period isn't the time. I have full faith that the election process has a moderately low fraud rate, below any amount that would change the outcome. Even so, the peaceful transition of power is more important than any particular mechanism. If any of the parties involved would like to raise a court case actually alleging fraud (which is why the cases have been dismissed: because they failed to do so, and anything short of this would have no remedy), an investigation would be in order. But it appears that fifty-seven cases have been filed, finding 108 votes whose signatures were improperly validated. So what, exactly, is the problem here? It seems like you're raising concerns of things that could have happened, without any actual weight behind them that they did happen. It's meaningless.
- 8note 6y ago
  The fact that they let people vote in person is highly suspect. It should have been a fully mail in vote to avoid covid

chordalkeyboard 6y ago

> I have yet to see any strong evidence that the election wasn't conducted properly. Well have you seen any evidence at all? What evidence would you expect to see and where have you looked? > I have see a lot of people on HN make vague statements along the lines of "there are things that suggest that some shady things may have taken place". Every one of these statements was unsourced, and carried a general subtext that any claim of fraud automatically deserved attention and belief, no matter how little evidence was provided, and that the burden on proof should lie on people refuting these claims. Why didn't they just link to [0]? > The burden of proof is on you for making extraordinary claims. The claims of widespread fraud should require extraordinary evidence as well, and there really hasn't been any. Well I think its extraordinary to claim (without evidence) that an adversarial process with high stakes and poor process controls was not corrupted. [0] https://apelbaum.wordpress.com/2020/12/03/the-georgia-ballot-underground-railroad/ https://apelbaum.wordpress.com/2020/12/03/the-georgia-ballot...

freeone3000 6y ago
Most people, me included, would require further evidence of fraud than ballot counters counting ballots. That article has a lot of deep-level evidence of verifying the ballot counters are, in fact ballot counters, but mere allegations that they were doing anything unusual.
- chordalkeyboard 6y ago
  > Most people, me included, would require further evidence of fraud than ballot counters counting ballots. Perhaps you're right and this is a sign that democracy is fundamentally broken. If people aren't able to understand that many forms of election compromise (e.g. ballot stuffing) are indistinguishable from a normal election without properly respected controls and audits. > but mere allegations that they were doing anything unusual. There are allegations coupled with evidence to support them, which is what is necessary to make an accusation that can be investigated.
  - 8note 6y ago
    As with 2016, the time to investigate them is after the election under the next legislature. Thus why trump got to keep his presidency in 2016
  - freeone3000 6y ago
    >Perhaps you're right and this is a sign that democracy is fundamentally broken. If people aren't able to understand that many forms of election compromise (e.g. ballot stuffing) are indistinguishable from a normal election without properly respected controls and audits. Maybe faith in the process should be shaken, but a volatile transition period isn't the time. I have full faith that the election process has a moderately low fraud rate, below any amount that would change the outcome. Even so, the peaceful transition of power is more important than any particular mechanism. If any of the parties involved would like to raise a court case actually alleging fraud (which is why the cases have been dismissed: because they failed to do so, and anything short of this would have no remedy), an investigation would be in order. But it appears that fifty-seven cases have been filed, finding 108 votes whose signatures were improperly validated. So what, exactly, is the problem here? It seems like you're raising concerns of things that could have happened, without any actual weight behind them that they did happen. It's meaningless.
8note 6y ago
The fact that they let people vote in person is highly suspect. It should have been a fully mail in vote to avoid covid