8 ms·

One thing is clear: the "Stop The Steal" crowd was clearly radicalized into something openly violent and seditious. Mainstream news outlets that actively encour

by Pils 6y ago

One thing is clear: the "Stop The Steal" crowd was clearly radicalized into something openly violent and seditious. Mainstream news outlets that actively encouraged this violence must be shut down. OANN/Newsmax delenda est

bra-ket 6y ago
I'd argue that crowd was radicalized by 4 years by endless anti-Trump propaganda and lies by mainstream media demonizing Trump and his supporters. The 'steal' happened way before the elections.
- krapp 6y ago
  I mean, the day's events have proven the mainstream media was right about Trump and his supporters all along, but ok.
  - bra-ket 6y ago
    I don’t see how is this worse than BLM riots burning and looting our cities for months. Double standard?
    - dTal 6y ago
      You don't see how breaking into the Capitol Building, during a dual session, with the express intent of disrupting the ratification of election results, because the loser of said election egged them on, is a more serious situation?
      - kryogen1c 6y ago
        of course not. they can have that meeting by zoom or teams or conference call. they didn't ruin anything, unlike the neighborhoods that may take years to rebuild. they feel political unrest and they took it out on politicians. theyre probably wrong, but its better than burning down some unrelated guys store, no?
        meowface 6y ago
        This is a nuanced issue. The intentions are indeed purer (if the comparison is restricted solely to someone breaching the Capitol building exclusively due to sincere belief the election was rigged [without displaying bigoted/fascist regalia/symbols] and someone burning down an arbitrary, unrelated private business after George Floyd's death), but two things: - That's partly why this really highlights the cold immorality and/or the abject delusion of the fomenter of this activity more than it does for most of the mob. I don't necessarily think most of the protestors and rioters are immoral or trying to be malicious: I think they genuinely believe what their leader is telling them and believe they're doing a righteous thing to protect the Constitution and the country. So for a large subset of the people, I think Trump deserves more blame for this than they do, whatever the underlying reasoning behind his actions. - It's difficult to accurately debate this without empirical classification of offenses (what people did and how many people did them), otherwise it's easy to start reducing a broad situation to one symbolized by its least or most admirable participants.
    - krapp 6y ago
      No matter what BLM did or didn't do - and saying they burned and looted cities for months is clear right-wing hyperbole - Trump supporters stormed the Capital, destroyed property, looted, committed violence and planted explosives in an attempt to disrupt the legitimate process of government and overturn the Presidential election. They are exactly the breed of fascists that everyone thought they were. You can blame the left as easily as you breathe but there isn't enough whataboutism in the world to negate that.
      - djsumdog 6y ago
        What happened in Capitol hill pales in comparison to BLM. I watched them burn the streets of Chicago. They looted stores in the loop, twice. There are stores that are gone forever. Nobody set the capitol on fire. The majority of protesters didn't even enter the building. They damaged some property in a public building. They didn't set a police station on fire. There is absolutely no way you can compare what happened on the 6th to any BLM race riot. Was it wrong? absolutely. They should not have done it. But the left has burned and looted. Portland has been absolutely insane. A 14 year old black kid was killed in CHAZ by community police that shot up a white Jeep and then tried to get rid of all the evidences. The Supreme Court dismissed the Texas lawsuit with three sentences. Three sentences!!! SCOTUS is the only venue for a state to challenge any other state. People have lost faith in the system, not because of the orange man bad, but because the system if fucking broken. People are totally unwilling to even acknowledge the idea or concept that wide spread mail in ballot fraud happened, when it certainly did.
        meowface 6y ago
        >People are totally unwilling to even acknowledge the idea or concept that wide spread mail in ballot fraud happened, when it certainly did. This is the crux of the issue; one of the two movies playing on the same screen. You and many other Trump voters genuinely believe this to be the case. The opposition believes there's no credible evidence not only for wide spread mail-in ballot fraud but not even for minor, scattered cases (besides the rare outliers here and there that are inevitable for every election). This one particular issue carries the potential to catalyze a chain reaction that eventually leads to conflict or war, so I think it's extremely important that people at the very least take the discussion seriously and try to help bridge the gap between the two movies. If this doesn't happen, the screen might just get ripped asunder.
    - edmundsauto 6y ago
      One is violence possibly triggered by police escalation to a once peaceful protest about people being murdered by authority figures. The other is trying to overthrow the United States government by attacking a formal sitting Congress.
- Pils 6y ago
  Why propagandize? The results are clearly speaking for themselves.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  I think it's right to call out the double-standard in reporting. There's a big dissonance in the eyes of folks who watched CNN stand over a burning building proclaiming that the BLM protests were in fact entirely peaceful. And in the eyes of folks watching FOX right now, saying the assault on the capital was largely peaceful. I'm not joking. Both of these things happened. I think it's also important to call out what's different between the two instances. The BLM protests were in response to a real, meaningful threat to the safety of a group of individuals. American citizens. There were real life body counts that were being fought against, and an attempt was made to renegotiate the role of policing in modern society. The capital assault was over something that didn't happen. The capital assault happened because the president has been fanning the flames of violence in America for four years. Seeding dissent. Destroying faith in governance and in the rule of law. Simply because of the fragility of his ego didn't allow him to accept defeat. I'll come right out and say it, violence is never ok. It's also not fair to equate the two of these situations.
  - kryogen1c 6y ago
    > The BLM protests were in response to a real, meaningful threat actually, your two examples are very alike in the "things that did not happen" category. the murder of George floyd was negligent at best and malicious at worst, but racist cops killing blacks is simply not a large issue, and certainly not a "meaningful threat" to all black people. San Harris published a seminal piece on the matter: https://youtu.be/vmgxtcbc4iU https://youtu.be/vmgxtcbc4iU
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      I will listen to the piece. Without saying I agree or disagree, if I take the position that racism in policing doesn't exist, and that the police are treating everyone equally: America has in prison today almost 0.7% of its entire population. Right now. It is the world's leading jailer on a per-capita basis. [1] Two thirds of private prisons (which lets step back for a second is horrifying as a concept) include minimum occupancy clauses. [2] This is an utter failure of the state in its duty of care to its citizens. To call this a conflict of interest doesn't even begin to do it justice. The incarceration rate among African Americans is almost 7X that of white folks in America. Criminality and race do not go hand in hand, therefore there exists a real and meaningful problem that is disproportionately affecting a racial group. A social and/or economic problem. African Americans have way more interaction with police and policing, and even if you believe there's no racial disparity in the way those interactions go down - that instead they're killed and harassed at the same rate as white folks on a per-encounter basis - the fact is they have way, way more encounters per capita. This is likely a function of the society that America has built and fostered. The reaction and the frustration and the protest is still justified even if you believe that race didn't play a factor in the specific instances, and even if you believe there's no systemic issue with policing. Now, there's also evidence that there is a difference in how they are treated by police, but I think my argument holds even if you reject that premise. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate#:~:text=At%20the%20end%20of%202016,the%20population%20was%20behind%20bars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_ra.... [2] https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2015/jul/31/report-finds-two-thirds-private-prison-contracts-include-lockup-quotas/ https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2015/jul/31/report-find...
- chasd00 6y ago
  i have to agree. if you spend 4 years telling half the country they are the enemy for supporting trump then don't be surprised when half the country views you as the enemy.
- adamsea 6y ago
  Baloney. First, two wrongs don’t make a right. Anyone in support of this seditious and violent behavior should be ashamed. Second, you have it backwards. Trump IS an authoritian - if today isn’t proof of that to you then I don’t know what to say to you. Which sadly seems to exactly be the problem. But I’ll reiterate the facts: - Zero election fraud. - President Trump lying and saying fraud existing, that the election is not in fact legitimate, and encouraging a violent mob to storm the capital.
  - djsumdog 6y ago
    > Second, you have it backwards. Trump IS an authoritian - if today isn’t proof of that to you then I don’t know what to say to you. His last and final tweet was literally to tell everyone to go home and not cause violence. He literally said he wanted peace. Either you haven't listened to it or your hatred is so strong nothing will quench that fire. Trump could have told them to occupy the building and they would have. He is the first president in my lifetime to not start a new war. He let cities burn and didn't send in any people unless states asked for it. In what fucked up world do you think Trump is authoritarian?
    - adamsea 6y ago
      Um he incited the mob in the first place and his message also praised the mob; he’s a liar and manipulator and this isn’t a time to pretend that his second grade wordplay-cleverness deniability double language actually fools anyone. He’s the fucking President of the country. He has responsibilities to defend the Constitution and the government and the country. He clearly failed those responsibilities today. Shame on you.
      - thu2111 6y ago
        Is there any way to allege voting fraud as a president without the very act of making the charge inciting a mob?
        klyrs 6y ago

by Pils 6y ago

bra-ket 6y ago

I'd argue that crowd was radicalized by 4 years by endless anti-Trump propaganda and lies by mainstream media demonizing Trump and his supporters. The 'steal' happened way before the elections.

krapp 6y ago
I mean, the day's events have proven the mainstream media was right about Trump and his supporters all along, but ok.
- bra-ket 6y ago
  I don’t see how is this worse than BLM riots burning and looting our cities for months. Double standard?
  - dTal 6y ago
    You don't see how breaking into the Capitol Building, during a dual session, with the express intent of disrupting the ratification of election results, because the loser of said election egged them on, is a more serious situation?
    - kryogen1c 6y ago
      of course not. they can have that meeting by zoom or teams or conference call. they didn't ruin anything, unlike the neighborhoods that may take years to rebuild. they feel political unrest and they took it out on politicians. theyre probably wrong, but its better than burning down some unrelated guys store, no?
      - meowface 6y ago
        This is a nuanced issue. The intentions are indeed purer (if the comparison is restricted solely to someone breaching the Capitol building exclusively due to sincere belief the election was rigged [without displaying bigoted/fascist regalia/symbols] and someone burning down an arbitrary, unrelated private business after George Floyd's death), but two things: - That's partly why this really highlights the cold immorality and/or the abject delusion of the fomenter of this activity more than it does for most of the mob. I don't necessarily think most of the protestors and rioters are immoral or trying to be malicious: I think they genuinely believe what their leader is telling them and believe they're doing a righteous thing to protect the Constitution and the country. So for a large subset of the people, I think Trump deserves more blame for this than they do, whatever the underlying reasoning behind his actions. - It's difficult to accurately debate this without empirical classification of offenses (what people did and how many people did them), otherwise it's easy to start reducing a broad situation to one symbolized by its least or most admirable participants.
  - krapp 6y ago
    No matter what BLM did or didn't do - and saying they burned and looted cities for months is clear right-wing hyperbole - Trump supporters stormed the Capital, destroyed property, looted, committed violence and planted explosives in an attempt to disrupt the legitimate process of government and overturn the Presidential election. They are exactly the breed of fascists that everyone thought they were. You can blame the left as easily as you breathe but there isn't enough whataboutism in the world to negate that.
    - djsumdog 6y ago
      What happened in Capitol hill pales in comparison to BLM. I watched them burn the streets of Chicago. They looted stores in the loop, twice. There are stores that are gone forever. Nobody set the capitol on fire. The majority of protesters didn't even enter the building. They damaged some property in a public building. They didn't set a police station on fire. There is absolutely no way you can compare what happened on the 6th to any BLM race riot. Was it wrong? absolutely. They should not have done it. But the left has burned and looted. Portland has been absolutely insane. A 14 year old black kid was killed in CHAZ by community police that shot up a white Jeep and then tried to get rid of all the evidences. The Supreme Court dismissed the Texas lawsuit with three sentences. Three sentences!!! SCOTUS is the only venue for a state to challenge any other state. People have lost faith in the system, not because of the orange man bad, but because the system if fucking broken. People are totally unwilling to even acknowledge the idea or concept that wide spread mail in ballot fraud happened, when it certainly did.
      - meowface 6y ago
        >People are totally unwilling to even acknowledge the idea or concept that wide spread mail in ballot fraud happened, when it certainly did. This is the crux of the issue; one of the two movies playing on the same screen. You and many other Trump voters genuinely believe this to be the case. The opposition believes there's no credible evidence not only for wide spread mail-in ballot fraud but not even for minor, scattered cases (besides the rare outliers here and there that are inevitable for every election). This one particular issue carries the potential to catalyze a chain reaction that eventually leads to conflict or war, so I think it's extremely important that people at the very least take the discussion seriously and try to help bridge the gap between the two movies. If this doesn't happen, the screen might just get ripped asunder.
  - edmundsauto 6y ago
    One is violence possibly triggered by police escalation to a once peaceful protest about people being murdered by authority figures. The other is trying to overthrow the United States government by attacking a formal sitting Congress.
Pils 6y ago
Why propagandize? The results are clearly speaking for themselves.
arcticbull 6y ago
I think it's right to call out the double-standard in reporting. There's a big dissonance in the eyes of folks who watched CNN stand over a burning building proclaiming that the BLM protests were in fact entirely peaceful. And in the eyes of folks watching FOX right now, saying the assault on the capital was largely peaceful. I'm not joking. Both of these things happened. I think it's also important to call out what's different between the two instances. The BLM protests were in response to a real, meaningful threat to the safety of a group of individuals. American citizens. There were real life body counts that were being fought against, and an attempt was made to renegotiate the role of policing in modern society. The capital assault was over something that didn't happen. The capital assault happened because the president has been fanning the flames of violence in America for four years. Seeding dissent. Destroying faith in governance and in the rule of law. Simply because of the fragility of his ego didn't allow him to accept defeat. I'll come right out and say it, violence is never ok. It's also not fair to equate the two of these situations.
- kryogen1c 6y ago
  > The BLM protests were in response to a real, meaningful threat actually, your two examples are very alike in the "things that did not happen" category. the murder of George floyd was negligent at best and malicious at worst, but racist cops killing blacks is simply not a large issue, and certainly not a "meaningful threat" to all black people. San Harris published a seminal piece on the matter: https://youtu.be/vmgxtcbc4iU https://youtu.be/vmgxtcbc4iU
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    I will listen to the piece. Without saying I agree or disagree, if I take the position that racism in policing doesn't exist, and that the police are treating everyone equally: America has in prison today almost 0.7% of its entire population. Right now. It is the world's leading jailer on a per-capita basis. [1] Two thirds of private prisons (which lets step back for a second is horrifying as a concept) include minimum occupancy clauses. [2] This is an utter failure of the state in its duty of care to its citizens. To call this a conflict of interest doesn't even begin to do it justice. The incarceration rate among African Americans is almost 7X that of white folks in America. Criminality and race do not go hand in hand, therefore there exists a real and meaningful problem that is disproportionately affecting a racial group. A social and/or economic problem. African Americans have way more interaction with police and policing, and even if you believe there's no racial disparity in the way those interactions go down - that instead they're killed and harassed at the same rate as white folks on a per-encounter basis - the fact is they have way, way more encounters per capita. This is likely a function of the society that America has built and fostered. The reaction and the frustration and the protest is still justified even if you believe that race didn't play a factor in the specific instances, and even if you believe there's no systemic issue with policing. Now, there's also evidence that there is a difference in how they are treated by police, but I think my argument holds even if you reject that premise. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate#:~:text=At%20the%20end%20of%202016,the%20population%20was%20behind%20bars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_ra.... [2] https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2015/jul/31/report-finds-two-thirds-private-prison-contracts-include-lockup-quotas/ https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2015/jul/31/report-find...
chasd00 6y ago
i have to agree. if you spend 4 years telling half the country they are the enemy for supporting trump then don't be surprised when half the country views you as the enemy.
adamsea 6y ago
Baloney. First, two wrongs don’t make a right. Anyone in support of this seditious and violent behavior should be ashamed. Second, you have it backwards. Trump IS an authoritian - if today isn’t proof of that to you then I don’t know what to say to you. Which sadly seems to exactly be the problem. But I’ll reiterate the facts: - Zero election fraud. - President Trump lying and saying fraud existing, that the election is not in fact legitimate, and encouraging a violent mob to storm the capital.
- djsumdog 6y ago
  > Second, you have it backwards. Trump IS an authoritian - if today isn’t proof of that to you then I don’t know what to say to you. His last and final tweet was literally to tell everyone to go home and not cause violence. He literally said he wanted peace. Either you haven't listened to it or your hatred is so strong nothing will quench that fire. Trump could have told them to occupy the building and they would have. He is the first president in my lifetime to not start a new war. He let cities burn and didn't send in any people unless states asked for it. In what fucked up world do you think Trump is authoritarian?
  - adamsea 6y ago
    Um he incited the mob in the first place and his message also praised the mob; he’s a liar and manipulator and this isn’t a time to pretend that his second grade wordplay-cleverness deniability double language actually fools anyone. He’s the fucking President of the country. He has responsibilities to defend the Constitution and the government and the country. He clearly failed those responsibilities today. Shame on you.
    - thu2111 6y ago
      Is there any way to allege voting fraud as a president without the very act of making the charge inciting a mob?
      - klyrs 6y ago