4 ms·

What does it mean to “have faith”?

by kingdomcome50 6y ago

camhart 6y ago
Belief or trust in something. Oftentimes that something is not something proven using scientific methods.
- minkzilla 6y ago
  I’d say faith can be belief in anything you haven’t seen yourself, including thing done through scientific methods. I have to have faith in scientist that they know what they are doing and correctly reported their results and in the committees that review them.
- kingdomcome50 6y ago
  That's exactly right. You can see how well the above compliments misinformation right? Go ahead and read any religious text (I've read many!). Nearly every culture has one or many myths. Do you believe them to be fact? Or do you only believe your religious text to be true? And if so, why? I don't mean to take a stance against religion in general. I agree with the above commenter that the impact of religion in a general sense does seem to be positive! A shared mythos can be a very powerful way of building community. This can have very real positive affects on a population, and, depending on that mythos, on an individual. But to suggest that religion doesn't require "faith" (i.e. believing in something despite no evidence) is... well... naïve.
  - camhart 6y ago
    Is something false merely because it can't be proven? I've gone through other forks on this thread. Here's my conclusion. No religion that I'm aware of can be proven or disproved based on scientific fact or observation. Yet that does not mean they are all false or true. One could very well be true. Or they could be false. But simply because we can't prove it doesn't mean it must be false. You cannot claim "misinformation" without proving its false. I cannot (and am not) claiming it "information" without proven it true. Its neither. There is a different question to ask, which is how and why people choose to believe in religion provided that they cannot be proven. I have my reasons, my personal evidences, that have led me to believe my religion is true. I also believe that you can learn for yourself whether or not my religion is true. If you wish to learn more about my experience and what has led me to believe, I'll share it in a venue that encourages respect and understanding. Unfortunately online forums rarely provide that.
    - kingdomcome50 6y ago
      I am honestly not trying to argue whether one specific myth is true or not. You are missing my point. There are many myths from many cultures that seek describe where we came from or how we ought to live. For example, nearly every culture has some story about the creation of man/the earth. They all cannot possibly be true. I'm sure we can agree that man/the earth wasn't created as many times as there are stories about it. So you are making claims about truth! How can you square the above with your belief in your own religion using the thought paradigm you outlined above? By claiming that your creation story is true (or as you may put it, "not proven false") you are also making a claim that all others are not true. A claim you have just argued cannot be made... It's all a fallacy. The most interesting question worth answering is: Why do you believe the myths that you do? Statistically speaking, the answer is because it is the one your parents believed. It's hard to explain away the eerie correlation between a person's religion and where they were born. Why is it that a child born in the Middle-East is so likely to follow Islam, a child in the West Christianity, in India Hindu, etc. etc.? It's almost as if these religions are a product of the people, not some greater truth. And for what it's worth, I see no meaningful difference between something that is false and something that cannot be proven to be true: "There are 2,145,124,152 birds in flight above the earth right now." - do you believe me? "Jesus Christ just came down and told me personally that Hindu is the one true religion" - do you believe me? "I just saw a red 2018 Toyota 4Runner drive past my house" - do you believe me? "One of the above claims it true" - do you believe me? What role does "faith" play when appraising the above questions? Are you applying "faith" in the same way to the above as you do to your religion? Probably not.
      - camhart 6y ago
        I agree, I cannot see how all the stories could be true. I believe one to be true, and the rest to be false. Does that mean I have scientific proof that one is true? No, and I have never claimed to. Does that mean I'm asking you to believe what I believe, simply because I believe it? No, I'd never do that. But this is beyond the point. My arguments on this thread have been about the claim that all religion is based on "misinformation". I feel a bit like a broken record here, but in order for something to be misinformation it must be proven false. Claims can either be proven true, proven false, or simply not proven true or false. There are 3 states--not 2. Religions fall into the last category, where the claims have not been proven or disproved. It's not misinformation until it's proven false. It's also not information until it's proven true. Which gets back to the key differences between faith and scientific fact. Faith is belief in something not (yet) proven true or false. Belief in science is based on something science has proven true or false. You're trying to take the way you approach science, likely because it's what you've been surrounded by in your recent life, and force it upon religious views. It doesn't work, because the basis for faith in a religion implies that the thing isn't proven using science. > Statistically speaking, the answer is because it is the one your parents believed. It's hard to explain away the eerie correlation between a person's religion and where they were born. Why is it that a child born in the Middle-East is so likely to follow Islam, a child in the West Christianity, in India Hindu, etc. etc.? It's almost as if these religions are a product of the people, not some greater truth. What environment have you been raised in? Western world, analytically educated? Atheism is a religion. It's the belief that there is no higher power--but it's still a belief... based on faith (not science). Science has neither proven or disproved the existence of God. Agnostic is also a religion based on faith. Whatever your actual beliefs or lack of beliefs are, it's not based on scientific fact. The word "myth" implies the account is proven false (through science). It's not accurate to use, unless you're able to prove the religious accounts false. I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm not asking you to believe in my religion. I'm simply stating that claiming all religions are based on misinformation cannot be done until they're all proven false. You've made great leaps about why I believe without understanding me, my faith, or the process I went through (and continue going through) to obtain and keep my faith. You can make as many assumptions as you want, but they haven't been accurate and likely won't be if you continue to do so. > What role does "faith" play when appraising the above questions? Are you applying "faith" in the same way to the above as you do to your religion? Probably not. I do not have faith in any of the claims you've made, no matter how reasonable. I'm not arguing that any one of them is true or false. > The most interesting question worth answering is: Why do you believe the myths that you do? I agree, this is the more interesting question. But it's not something I wish to discuss on a public forum. It's deeply personal. If you are genuinely interested, I'd happily share it in a different venue.
animal_spirits 6y ago
Having faith can be applied generally. To me, this is the philosophy of Christ that taught me the most. Do you have faith in humanity? Do you have hope that people will choose goodness over wickedness? I do. History has taught me that humans move forward. I have faith in humanity that progress will continue. I believe that righteousness and justice can be the fuel to drive us forward. If I didn't have any faith what would I have? If everyone was a cynic, where would we be? Certainly much worse off than we see ourselves today.
- kingdomcome50 6y ago
  My point is not that having faith is wrong or bad, rather, that to believe in the kinds of myths many religions espouse requires faith. It is impossible to believe in the teachings of the Bible without having faith. I'm sure you bring an equal amount of faith when reading other stories. You don't? Why not?

What does it mean to “have faith”?

camhart 6y ago

Belief or trust in something. Oftentimes that something is not something proven using scientific methods.

minkzilla 6y ago
I’d say faith can be belief in anything you haven’t seen yourself, including thing done through scientific methods. I have to have faith in scientist that they know what they are doing and correctly reported their results and in the committees that review them.
kingdomcome50 6y ago
That's exactly right. You can see how well the above compliments misinformation right? Go ahead and read any religious text (I've read many!). Nearly every culture has one or many myths. Do you believe them to be fact? Or do you only believe your religious text to be true? And if so, why? I don't mean to take a stance against religion in general. I agree with the above commenter that the impact of religion in a general sense does seem to be positive! A shared mythos can be a very powerful way of building community. This can have very real positive affects on a population, and, depending on that mythos, on an individual. But to suggest that religion doesn't require "faith" (i.e. believing in something despite no evidence) is... well... naïve.
- camhart 6y ago
  Is something false merely because it can't be proven? I've gone through other forks on this thread. Here's my conclusion. No religion that I'm aware of can be proven or disproved based on scientific fact or observation. Yet that does not mean they are all false or true. One could very well be true. Or they could be false. But simply because we can't prove it doesn't mean it must be false. You cannot claim "misinformation" without proving its false. I cannot (and am not) claiming it "information" without proven it true. Its neither. There is a different question to ask, which is how and why people choose to believe in religion provided that they cannot be proven. I have my reasons, my personal evidences, that have led me to believe my religion is true. I also believe that you can learn for yourself whether or not my religion is true. If you wish to learn more about my experience and what has led me to believe, I'll share it in a venue that encourages respect and understanding. Unfortunately online forums rarely provide that.
  - kingdomcome50 6y ago
    I am honestly not trying to argue whether one specific myth is true or not. You are missing my point. There are many myths from many cultures that seek describe where we came from or how we ought to live. For example, nearly every culture has some story about the creation of man/the earth. They all cannot possibly be true. I'm sure we can agree that man/the earth wasn't created as many times as there are stories about it. So you are making claims about truth! How can you square the above with your belief in your own religion using the thought paradigm you outlined above? By claiming that your creation story is true (or as you may put it, "not proven false") you are also making a claim that all others are not true. A claim you have just argued cannot be made... It's all a fallacy. The most interesting question worth answering is: Why do you believe the myths that you do? Statistically speaking, the answer is because it is the one your parents believed. It's hard to explain away the eerie correlation between a person's religion and where they were born. Why is it that a child born in the Middle-East is so likely to follow Islam, a child in the West Christianity, in India Hindu, etc. etc.? It's almost as if these religions are a product of the people, not some greater truth. And for what it's worth, I see no meaningful difference between something that is false and something that cannot be proven to be true: "There are 2,145,124,152 birds in flight above the earth right now." - do you believe me? "Jesus Christ just came down and told me personally that Hindu is the one true religion" - do you believe me? "I just saw a red 2018 Toyota 4Runner drive past my house" - do you believe me? "One of the above claims it true" - do you believe me? What role does "faith" play when appraising the above questions? Are you applying "faith" in the same way to the above as you do to your religion? Probably not.
    - camhart 6y ago
      I agree, I cannot see how all the stories could be true. I believe one to be true, and the rest to be false. Does that mean I have scientific proof that one is true? No, and I have never claimed to. Does that mean I'm asking you to believe what I believe, simply because I believe it? No, I'd never do that. But this is beyond the point. My arguments on this thread have been about the claim that all religion is based on "misinformation". I feel a bit like a broken record here, but in order for something to be misinformation it must be proven false. Claims can either be proven true, proven false, or simply not proven true or false. There are 3 states--not 2. Religions fall into the last category, where the claims have not been proven or disproved. It's not misinformation until it's proven false. It's also not information until it's proven true. Which gets back to the key differences between faith and scientific fact. Faith is belief in something not (yet) proven true or false. Belief in science is based on something science has proven true or false. You're trying to take the way you approach science, likely because it's what you've been surrounded by in your recent life, and force it upon religious views. It doesn't work, because the basis for faith in a religion implies that the thing isn't proven using science. > Statistically speaking, the answer is because it is the one your parents believed. It's hard to explain away the eerie correlation between a person's religion and where they were born. Why is it that a child born in the Middle-East is so likely to follow Islam, a child in the West Christianity, in India Hindu, etc. etc.? It's almost as if these religions are a product of the people, not some greater truth. What environment have you been raised in? Western world, analytically educated? Atheism is a religion. It's the belief that there is no higher power--but it's still a belief... based on faith (not science). Science has neither proven or disproved the existence of God. Agnostic is also a religion based on faith. Whatever your actual beliefs or lack of beliefs are, it's not based on scientific fact. The word "myth" implies the account is proven false (through science). It's not accurate to use, unless you're able to prove the religious accounts false. I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm not asking you to believe in my religion. I'm simply stating that claiming all religions are based on misinformation cannot be done until they're all proven false. You've made great leaps about why I believe without understanding me, my faith, or the process I went through (and continue going through) to obtain and keep my faith. You can make as many assumptions as you want, but they haven't been accurate and likely won't be if you continue to do so. > What role does "faith" play when appraising the above questions? Are you applying "faith" in the same way to the above as you do to your religion? Probably not. I do not have faith in any of the claims you've made, no matter how reasonable. I'm not arguing that any one of them is true or false. > The most interesting question worth answering is: Why do you believe the myths that you do? I agree, this is the more interesting question. But it's not something I wish to discuss on a public forum. It's deeply personal. If you are genuinely interested, I'd happily share it in a different venue.

animal_spirits 6y ago

Having faith can be applied generally. To me, this is the philosophy of Christ that taught me the most. Do you have faith in humanity? Do you have hope that people will choose goodness over wickedness? I do. History has taught me that humans move forward. I have faith in humanity that progress will continue. I believe that righteousness and justice can be the fuel to drive us forward. If I didn't have any faith what would I have? If everyone was a cynic, where would we be? Certainly much worse off than we see ourselves today.

kingdomcome50 6y ago
My point is not that having faith is wrong or bad, rather, that to believe in the kinds of myths many religions espouse requires faith. It is impossible to believe in the teachings of the Bible without having faith. I'm sure you bring an equal amount of faith when reading other stories. You don't? Why not?