6 ms·

Fascism calls out the problem but has the wrong solutions. It's tied to race, nationalism, authoritarianism, and other tribal aspects that are easy for some to

Fascism calls out the problem but has the wrong solutions. It's tied to race, nationalism, authoritarianism, and other tribal aspects that are easy for some to grab onto but really do not have any place being part of the solution. If you talk to anyone defending the anti-democractic occupation of the nation's capital today, you'll see that their response is typically is pro-fascist in this regard. Even this morning, they quoted Adolf Hitler at the capital: https://twitter.com/always_margot/status/1346578062700400647 https://twitter.com/always_margot/status/1346578062700400647

baybal2 6y ago
Fascism does not see the problem, it is the problem. The grandiose, arrogant, and blind social elites calling out the popular masses to be socially alienated. Whose social alienation it would be? Of course such masses will be of service to any any much significant opportunist group. People will vote even for a devil himself if one promises to get rid them off such elites. Just like that, 20 years ago, in a country far, far away, the destitute populace decided, in its sane mind, to vote into power not anybody, but an ex-officer from a mafia-like intelligence organisation people worked so hard to remove from power just 10 years prior.
- bduerst 6y ago
  When I say calls out the problem, I mean fascism speaks to the class rift, and tells them all the wrong ideas and solutions. We agree that this is creating even worse problems. The wealth divide in the U.S. has been steadily increasing, and the solution for the working class (higher education) isn't working like it used to, even making it worse for young people. This has lead to an angry working class who feel justified in blaming their problems on other out-groups, whether that's BLM, democrats, China, Mexicans, tech companies, doctors, lgtbq, etc. This is what fascism is feeding on in America, and it has to stop.
  - baybal2 6y ago
    > When I say calls out the problem, I mean fascism speaks to the class rift, and tells them all the wrong ideas and solutions. We agree that this is creating even worse problems. There, we are on the same page. A good historical example I brought up few weeks ago somewhere on HN. A shameful truth from NSDAP days Germans did not come to admit even to this day is why Kristallnacht has happened. The prime majority of Germans were not antisemites in thirties, and not even in forties. The image of the schizophrenoid—paranoid antisemite was completely uncharacteristic for anybody, but for single digit percentage of fanatics not unlike the current rightist crowd in America. So, if most Germans did not drink the NSDAP coolaid, why did Kristallnacht happen? It happened not because of Jewish people being Jewish as such. It happened because of Jewish people being rich (or being deemed so,) and NSDAP effectively promising complete impunity for looting.
    - simonh 6y ago
      The vast majority of Jews in Germany back then were dirt poor though. The issue is while most Germans weren’t particularly anti-Semitic, they didn’t care enough about it to object.
    - cassepipe 6y ago
      I really wonder about the accuracy of "Jewish people being rich". I seem to remember there was a massive Jewish proletariat that went straight to the camps. German Jewish population might have fared a little better economically (but that remains to be proved with numbers) but I believe most of Eastern Europe Jewish population was NOT rich. So I get your point but I am afraid things are little more complex. (Any sources about the topic welcome)
      - filoleg 6y ago
        I think a more correct way to say it wouldn't be "because of Jewish people being rich", but "because of Jewish people being perceived as rich as a group". I don't think anyone in their right mind would try arguing that most jewish people in Germany at the time were rich, because that was definitely not the case at all.
      - 6y ago
- core-questions 6y ago
  > Fascism does not see the problem, it is the problem. Nobody is even close to implementing a fascist system in America. This is the kind of thing people who don't actually know anything about Fascism say. Trump was not a Fascist or even close to it. Stop falling into the tired rhetoric of the 20th century. New words are needed to name the problem. The name for the system that you need to start using is "Totalitarian Liberalism". The leader is less important than the sum total bureaucratic control that slowly and "rationally" usurps freedom, flexibility, and leisure time from society for the benefit of the people who have the most influence over policy. It is not a populist system that benefits the aristocracy and the working class by aligning corporate and state power in the national interest (fascism) nor a system that purports to benefit the working class by giving them the means of production (communism) - it is a system that works to benefit the existing rich by exploiting and undermining social divides, papering over them with rules and laws that marginalize the entire working class while setting it against itself.
  - dr_dshiv 6y ago
    Why do you say Trump was not close to fascism? I thought the combination of populism + nationalism + law/order + charismatic leadership + monied interests was close to fascist.
  - notabee 6y ago
    From: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/fascism-1 https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/fascism-1 * strident, often exclusionary nationalism - ("America First") check. * fixation with national decline (real or perceived) and threats to the existence of the national community - ("MAGA") check. * embrace of paramilitarism - ("stand back and stand by") check. * led by an authoritarian leader who claims to embody the national will. - check. * protecting or elevating the rights of the national community above the rights of those seen as alien - ("build a wall", "I don't care, do u?") check. * removing obstacles to national unity and suppressing those seen as challenging it - (myth of "stolen" votes, "Deep State" narrative) check. * expanding the size and influence of the national state - (To be fair, this has been the military industrial complex for quite a long time. Nothing unique here) normalized/not unique here * often, also seeking to expand territory through armed conflict - (Also, already a characteristic of the U.S. forever war to protect its interests globally) normalized/not unique here Merriam-Webster: Definition of fascism 1. often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition 2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control early instances of army fascism and brutality — J. W. Aldridge Don't know where you're getting your definition from.
- baybal2 6y ago
  To wrap your head around what's going on now across the Western world, read: 1. Revolutions of 1830: https://www.britannica.com/event/Revolutions-of-1830 https://www.britannica.com/event/Revolutions-of-1830 2. The Spring of Nations: https://www.britannica.com/event/Revolutions-of-1848 https://www.britannica.com/event/Revolutions-of-1848 USA now is basically France of early-mid-19th century. My clumsy prognosis, USA will more or less repeat the route towards the French style liberal state, possibly, with few Napoleons along the way. And if it wouldn't, then it may well end up Weimarized.
  - brutusborn 6y ago
    I had a read but don't understand the connection. Could you please elaborate?
    - baybal2 6y ago
      Think of the "establishment" as the Ancien Régime. Kings, and governments were replaced like worn gloves in 19th century, but the regime in general was always kind of stuck no matter what angry masses did. Nobility, bourgeois, wealthy burghers, revolutionary hipsters kept changing, while poor, unwashed masses were kept being oppressed, and handing power to the next group of tricksters out of four above again, and again. Changing the order of the operands does not change the resulting product. Guillotines were only finally retired when the collective elite class was compelled to genuinely start improving the situation of downtrodden classes for the fear for their own lives, rather than some romantic altruism.
tomp 6y ago
From the tweet you quoted: > And for those who want to nitpick what she said, let me just stop you right there—Hitler was right on literally nothing. This is most likely fake news. Hitler was one of the first world leaders against smoking. So he was right on at least one thing.
- 8note 6y ago
  See also: * Rockets * Propaganda films The US still uses his advancements today
djsumdog 6y ago
What she quoted, "Who ever has the youth has the future" .. well, that's right. People are seriously afraid of things like Critical Race Theory and Gender Ideology being taught in our schools. It's indoctrinating kids and parent's don't have a choice about it being taught to their kids. She is literally quoting Hitler to show what the LEFT is doing in schools and how it's WRONG. This reaction is taken entirely out of context.

baybal2 6y ago

Fascism does not see the problem, it is the problem. The grandiose, arrogant, and blind social elites calling out the popular masses to be socially alienated. Whose social alienation it would be? Of course such masses will be of service to any any much significant opportunist group. People will vote even for a devil himself if one promises to get rid them off such elites. Just like that, 20 years ago, in a country far, far away, the destitute populace decided, in its sane mind, to vote into power not anybody, but an ex-officer from a mafia-like intelligence organisation people worked so hard to remove from power just 10 years prior.

bduerst 6y ago
When I say calls out the problem, I mean fascism speaks to the class rift, and tells them all the wrong ideas and solutions. We agree that this is creating even worse problems. The wealth divide in the U.S. has been steadily increasing, and the solution for the working class (higher education) isn't working like it used to, even making it worse for young people. This has lead to an angry working class who feel justified in blaming their problems on other out-groups, whether that's BLM, democrats, China, Mexicans, tech companies, doctors, lgtbq, etc. This is what fascism is feeding on in America, and it has to stop.
- baybal2 6y ago
  > When I say calls out the problem, I mean fascism speaks to the class rift, and tells them all the wrong ideas and solutions. We agree that this is creating even worse problems. There, we are on the same page. A good historical example I brought up few weeks ago somewhere on HN. A shameful truth from NSDAP days Germans did not come to admit even to this day is why Kristallnacht has happened. The prime majority of Germans were not antisemites in thirties, and not even in forties. The image of the schizophrenoid—paranoid antisemite was completely uncharacteristic for anybody, but for single digit percentage of fanatics not unlike the current rightist crowd in America. So, if most Germans did not drink the NSDAP coolaid, why did Kristallnacht happen? It happened not because of Jewish people being Jewish as such. It happened because of Jewish people being rich (or being deemed so,) and NSDAP effectively promising complete impunity for looting.
  - simonh 6y ago
    The vast majority of Jews in Germany back then were dirt poor though. The issue is while most Germans weren’t particularly anti-Semitic, they didn’t care enough about it to object.
  - cassepipe 6y ago
    I really wonder about the accuracy of "Jewish people being rich". I seem to remember there was a massive Jewish proletariat that went straight to the camps. German Jewish population might have fared a little better economically (but that remains to be proved with numbers) but I believe most of Eastern Europe Jewish population was NOT rich. So I get your point but I am afraid things are little more complex. (Any sources about the topic welcome)
    - filoleg 6y ago
      I think a more correct way to say it wouldn't be "because of Jewish people being rich", but "because of Jewish people being perceived as rich as a group". I don't think anyone in their right mind would try arguing that most jewish people in Germany at the time were rich, because that was definitely not the case at all.
    - 6y ago
core-questions 6y ago
> Fascism does not see the problem, it is the problem. Nobody is even close to implementing a fascist system in America. This is the kind of thing people who don't actually know anything about Fascism say. Trump was not a Fascist or even close to it. Stop falling into the tired rhetoric of the 20th century. New words are needed to name the problem. The name for the system that you need to start using is "Totalitarian Liberalism". The leader is less important than the sum total bureaucratic control that slowly and "rationally" usurps freedom, flexibility, and leisure time from society for the benefit of the people who have the most influence over policy. It is not a populist system that benefits the aristocracy and the working class by aligning corporate and state power in the national interest (fascism) nor a system that purports to benefit the working class by giving them the means of production (communism) - it is a system that works to benefit the existing rich by exploiting and undermining social divides, papering over them with rules and laws that marginalize the entire working class while setting it against itself.
- dr_dshiv 6y ago
  Why do you say Trump was not close to fascism? I thought the combination of populism + nationalism + law/order + charismatic leadership + monied interests was close to fascist.
- notabee 6y ago
  From: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/fascism-1 https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/fascism-1 * strident, often exclusionary nationalism - ("America First") check. * fixation with national decline (real or perceived) and threats to the existence of the national community - ("MAGA") check. * embrace of paramilitarism - ("stand back and stand by") check. * led by an authoritarian leader who claims to embody the national will. - check. * protecting or elevating the rights of the national community above the rights of those seen as alien - ("build a wall", "I don't care, do u?") check. * removing obstacles to national unity and suppressing those seen as challenging it - (myth of "stolen" votes, "Deep State" narrative) check. * expanding the size and influence of the national state - (To be fair, this has been the military industrial complex for quite a long time. Nothing unique here) normalized/not unique here * often, also seeking to expand territory through armed conflict - (Also, already a characteristic of the U.S. forever war to protect its interests globally) normalized/not unique here Merriam-Webster: Definition of fascism 1. often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition 2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control early instances of army fascism and brutality — J. W. Aldridge Don't know where you're getting your definition from.
baybal2 6y ago
To wrap your head around what's going on now across the Western world, read: 1. Revolutions of 1830: https://www.britannica.com/event/Revolutions-of-1830 https://www.britannica.com/event/Revolutions-of-1830 2. The Spring of Nations: https://www.britannica.com/event/Revolutions-of-1848 https://www.britannica.com/event/Revolutions-of-1848 USA now is basically France of early-mid-19th century. My clumsy prognosis, USA will more or less repeat the route towards the French style liberal state, possibly, with few Napoleons along the way. And if it wouldn't, then it may well end up Weimarized.
- brutusborn 6y ago
  I had a read but don't understand the connection. Could you please elaborate?
  - baybal2 6y ago
    Think of the "establishment" as the Ancien Régime. Kings, and governments were replaced like worn gloves in 19th century, but the regime in general was always kind of stuck no matter what angry masses did. Nobility, bourgeois, wealthy burghers, revolutionary hipsters kept changing, while poor, unwashed masses were kept being oppressed, and handing power to the next group of tricksters out of four above again, and again. Changing the order of the operands does not change the resulting product. Guillotines were only finally retired when the collective elite class was compelled to genuinely start improving the situation of downtrodden classes for the fear for their own lives, rather than some romantic altruism.

tomp 6y ago

From the tweet you quoted: > And for those who want to nitpick what she said, let me just stop you right there—Hitler was right on literally nothing. This is most likely fake news. Hitler was one of the first world leaders against smoking. So he was right on at least one thing.

8note 6y ago
See also: * Rockets * Propaganda films The US still uses his advancements today

djsumdog 6y ago

What she quoted, "Who ever has the youth has the future" .. well, that's right. People are seriously afraid of things like Critical Race Theory and Gender Ideology being taught in our schools. It's indoctrinating kids and parent's don't have a choice about it being taught to their kids. She is literally quoting Hitler to show what the LEFT is doing in schools and how it's WRONG. This reaction is taken entirely out of context.