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Facebook and twitter allow the manipulation and coercion to happen faster and more efficiently. We weren’t ready for that massive shift in media.

ehsankia 6y ago
It's honestly not too different than the pandemic we are living through. But instead of a biological virus, it's more of a thought virus. There's a lot of discussion in this thread about whether information should be more or less open, but if anything I think this past few years has shown how ideas such as antivaxx, antimask and election fraud can spread extremely effectively online and infiltrate millions of minds. Reminds me a bit of CGPGrey's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc
- cercatrova 6y ago
  Dawkins coined meme to mean just such a cultural piece of information that disseminates. Just as a gene wants to get to as many people as possible (ie natural, sexual selection) so too do ideas. In this case, the internet has vastly sped it up such that ideas can travel instantaneously.
  - kazinator 6y ago
    Unfortunately, bad ideas also, like that meme should refer to a low-effort combination of some stock picture and some caption conveying puerile humor or a subcultural circle jerk.
  - ehsankia 6y ago
    It's not only that that ideas travel, but also how they evolve and adapt like a virus to be in the most potent and engaging version, not too dissimilar from natural selection. It also is true that they are much easier to spread than to cure (debunk).
bra-ket 6y ago
I still think mainstream news have a larger role in this, social media are followers. People share news stories as if they are true, with context often omitted, manipulated or outright fabricated. But people still trust their news. CNN, NYT, Washington Post, HuffPost, Vox, Fox News turned into extremely biased sources of disinformation and blatant propaganda. E.g. a fabricated story in The Atlantic magazine, citing anonymous sources, was repeated and amplified by all these major media hubs and then further by social media for weeks. It's like a giant wave after wave of misinformation and rumors presented as facts. The burden of evidence apparently no longer applies. The bias is mostly on the left wing of political spectrum, but the right wing are not too far behind.
- Pils 6y ago
  One thing is clear: the "Stop The Steal" crowd was clearly radicalized into something openly violent and seditious. Mainstream news outlets that actively encouraged this violence must be shut down. OANN/Newsmax delenda est
  - bra-ket 6y ago
    I'd argue that crowd was radicalized by 4 years by endless anti-Trump propaganda and lies by mainstream media demonizing Trump and his supporters. The 'steal' happened way before the elections.
    - krapp 6y ago
      I mean, the day's events have proven the mainstream media was right about Trump and his supporters all along, but ok.
      - bra-ket 6y ago
        I don’t see how is this worse than BLM riots burning and looting our cities for months. Double standard?
        6y ago
tempestn 6y ago
That is a big difference right now I think. For most of the Trump presidency, Fox basically acted as his platform, and so I doubt much would have been different over that period if Twitter and Facebook didn't exist. With overturning an election being a bridge too far for them though, without the direct platform of Twitter, I don't see things getting to this point. One could certainly argue that a system where leaders have a direct platform to address the people is more democratic than one that relies on media gatekeepers, but it does have its downsides.
- raydev 6y ago
  Fox has both been for and against Trump throughout his presidency. They have, however, been pro-Republican for 2 decades, which is a separate issue. Older Trump fans are mostly getting their info through FB now. Look at FB's top shared pages/posts. The younger ones are on spread out on FB, reddit, reddit clones.
  - blisterpeanuts 6y ago
    There's also OAN, Epoch Times, RSBN, Parler, Newsmax, various YouTube vloggers like Millie Weaver, Anthony Brian Logan, Tim Pool, Mark Dice, etc. Quite a lot of conservative/alternative news and commentary out there. The Big Tech platforms include FB and YouTube are despised by pro-Trump folks, because of perceptions of suppression and censorship.
    - djsumdog 6y ago
      Most of these are the new media. I am thankful we have freedom of speech in this country because CNN/MSNBC/FOX/WaPo/NPR all need to be put in place. They are constantly dousing fuel on the first and blatantly misleading the American people about current events. They have no opposition. They are practically State Sponsored Media. OAN, RSBN, Megyn Kelly, No Agenda Podcast .. hell even Candice Owens .. Newsmax is actually ancient and is suddenly making a comeback out of nowhere because they actually report the news! I think YouTube will be out of the game soon. It's going to be a left echo chamber. I'm surprised they haven't shut down Tim Pool yet. We need more alternative outlets, websites and social media networks.
chiefalchemist 6y ago
Towards the end of this they discuss the mass manipulation of emotions. Surveillance Capitalism is real. https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/segments/living-under-surveillance-capitalism-on-the-media https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/segments/living-und...

ehsankia 6y ago

It's honestly not too different than the pandemic we are living through. But instead of a biological virus, it's more of a thought virus. There's a lot of discussion in this thread about whether information should be more or less open, but if anything I think this past few years has shown how ideas such as antivaxx, antimask and election fraud can spread extremely effectively online and infiltrate millions of minds. Reminds me a bit of CGPGrey's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc

cercatrova 6y ago
Dawkins coined meme to mean just such a cultural piece of information that disseminates. Just as a gene wants to get to as many people as possible (ie natural, sexual selection) so too do ideas. In this case, the internet has vastly sped it up such that ideas can travel instantaneously.
- kazinator 6y ago
  Unfortunately, bad ideas also, like that meme should refer to a low-effort combination of some stock picture and some caption conveying puerile humor or a subcultural circle jerk.
- ehsankia 6y ago
  It's not only that that ideas travel, but also how they evolve and adapt like a virus to be in the most potent and engaging version, not too dissimilar from natural selection. It also is true that they are much easier to spread than to cure (debunk).

bra-ket 6y ago

I still think mainstream news have a larger role in this, social media are followers. People share news stories as if they are true, with context often omitted, manipulated or outright fabricated. But people still trust their news. CNN, NYT, Washington Post, HuffPost, Vox, Fox News turned into extremely biased sources of disinformation and blatant propaganda. E.g. a fabricated story in The Atlantic magazine, citing anonymous sources, was repeated and amplified by all these major media hubs and then further by social media for weeks. It's like a giant wave after wave of misinformation and rumors presented as facts. The burden of evidence apparently no longer applies. The bias is mostly on the left wing of political spectrum, but the right wing are not too far behind.

Pils 6y ago
One thing is clear: the "Stop The Steal" crowd was clearly radicalized into something openly violent and seditious. Mainstream news outlets that actively encouraged this violence must be shut down. OANN/Newsmax delenda est
- bra-ket 6y ago
  I'd argue that crowd was radicalized by 4 years by endless anti-Trump propaganda and lies by mainstream media demonizing Trump and his supporters. The 'steal' happened way before the elections.
  - krapp 6y ago
    I mean, the day's events have proven the mainstream media was right about Trump and his supporters all along, but ok.
    - bra-ket 6y ago
      I don’t see how is this worse than BLM riots burning and looting our cities for months. Double standard?
      - 6y ago

tempestn 6y ago

That is a big difference right now I think. For most of the Trump presidency, Fox basically acted as his platform, and so I doubt much would have been different over that period if Twitter and Facebook didn't exist. With overturning an election being a bridge too far for them though, without the direct platform of Twitter, I don't see things getting to this point. One could certainly argue that a system where leaders have a direct platform to address the people is more democratic than one that relies on media gatekeepers, but it does have its downsides.

raydev 6y ago
Fox has both been for and against Trump throughout his presidency. They have, however, been pro-Republican for 2 decades, which is a separate issue. Older Trump fans are mostly getting their info through FB now. Look at FB's top shared pages/posts. The younger ones are on spread out on FB, reddit, reddit clones.
- blisterpeanuts 6y ago
  There's also OAN, Epoch Times, RSBN, Parler, Newsmax, various YouTube vloggers like Millie Weaver, Anthony Brian Logan, Tim Pool, Mark Dice, etc. Quite a lot of conservative/alternative news and commentary out there. The Big Tech platforms include FB and YouTube are despised by pro-Trump folks, because of perceptions of suppression and censorship.
  - djsumdog 6y ago
    Most of these are the new media. I am thankful we have freedom of speech in this country because CNN/MSNBC/FOX/WaPo/NPR all need to be put in place. They are constantly dousing fuel on the first and blatantly misleading the American people about current events. They have no opposition. They are practically State Sponsored Media. OAN, RSBN, Megyn Kelly, No Agenda Podcast .. hell even Candice Owens .. Newsmax is actually ancient and is suddenly making a comeback out of nowhere because they actually report the news! I think YouTube will be out of the game soon. It's going to be a left echo chamber. I'm surprised they haven't shut down Tim Pool yet. We need more alternative outlets, websites and social media networks.

chiefalchemist 6y ago

Towards the end of this they discuss the mass manipulation of emotions. Surveillance Capitalism is real. https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/segments/living-under-surveillance-capitalism-on-the-media https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/segments/living-und...