4 ms·

> It is like testing a surgeon's suturing skill during a job interview. Of course, it is an essential skill for them to have, but that's something for a school

> It is like testing a surgeon's suturing skill during a job interview. Of course, it is an essential skill for them to have, but that's something for a school exam and not job interview for someone with verifiable credentials. Or do you think that surgeon didn't suture in their previous job and just "winged it through" for years? Yes, absolutely, I think that some surgeons can be less skilled at suturing after years of experience, and it'd be wise to have them demonstrate these skills in an objective way during a job interview rather than relying on credentials. eg: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1878875015006300 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S187887501... > Most methods currently used to assess surgical skill are rather subjective or not adequate for microneurosurgery. Objective and quantitative microneurosurgical skill assessment systems that are capable of accurate measurements are necessary for the further development of microneurosurgery. and https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/31/a-vital-measure-your-surgeons-skill/ https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/31/a-vital-measure-yo... > To the researchers’ surprise, there were huge variations in operative skill between the practicing surgeons, with the lowest ranked surgeons working at what the reviewers considered a level only slightly better than a trainee at the end of residency, and the highest-ranking surgeons working like “masters” in their field. Software engineer interviews are absolutely imperfect, but I don't think other professions have this figured out either.

janoc 6y ago
And you want to say that such assessment is actually done during a job interview and not during, you know, actual surgeries? With a more senior doctor on the team evaluating (and likely mentoring) the new hire? Seriously?
- scottlamb 6y ago
  I was going for brevity. You might be missing my point here, which is: relying on credentials isn't working out as well as people might think for surgeons. They have a much stronger credential requirement, so if it isn't working for them, it probably won't work for hiring software engineers either. But to answer your question, of the two links I included: * the first is an artificial test that can be taken any time. Yes, it could be actually done during a job interview, and maybe it should. Alternatively, maybe it should be done yearly, whether that's enforced by the medical licensing board, the hospital, or insurance (either the patients' insurance forces it or the doctor's malpractice insurance). * the second mentions criteria for ranking performance from a video of an actual surgery. No, I'm not suggesting applicants perform unnecessary surgery on a live patient during the job interview. They can bring a video of their most recent surgery instead. The details of the best method for surgeons might not be that relevant to hiring software engineers, but I do think for both it's better to evaluate current skill rather than rely on exams from school years ago. Software engineering does this better than most fields, even if it sometimes leads to really bad results like not hiring Dan Luu. [1] [1] https://danluu.com/algorithms-interviews/ https://danluu.com/algorithms-interviews/

janoc 6y ago

And you want to say that such assessment is actually done during a job interview and not during, you know, actual surgeries? With a more senior doctor on the team evaluating (and likely mentoring) the new hire? Seriously?

scottlamb 6y ago
I was going for brevity. You might be missing my point here, which is: relying on credentials isn't working out as well as people might think for surgeons. They have a much stronger credential requirement, so if it isn't working for them, it probably won't work for hiring software engineers either. But to answer your question, of the two links I included: * the first is an artificial test that can be taken any time. Yes, it could be actually done during a job interview, and maybe it should. Alternatively, maybe it should be done yearly, whether that's enforced by the medical licensing board, the hospital, or insurance (either the patients' insurance forces it or the doctor's malpractice insurance). * the second mentions criteria for ranking performance from a video of an actual surgery. No, I'm not suggesting applicants perform unnecessary surgery on a live patient during the job interview. They can bring a video of their most recent surgery instead. The details of the best method for surgeons might not be that relevant to hiring software engineers, but I do think for both it's better to evaluate current skill rather than rely on exams from school years ago. Software engineering does this better than most fields, even if it sometimes leads to really bad results like not hiring Dan Luu. [1] [1] https://danluu.com/algorithms-interviews/ https://danluu.com/algorithms-interviews/