5 ms·

I entered the industry with no degree, having taught myself to code. After approx 15 years as a developer, I decided to get a degree, because it was becoming a

I entered the industry with no degree, having taught myself to code. After approx 15 years as a developer, I decided to get a degree, because it was becoming a problem (Australia is very sensitive to qualifications). I decided to get an MBA because all the hard problems I'd met were people and/or business problems. The tech is generally easy in commercial coding. There is usually a definitive answer, and if not then the trade-offs are generally well-known. It's rare to run into a problem that requires complex technical knowledge, and in those cases it's fine to hire a consultant to help. But the people problems are hard. Getting clued-up on these is important.

airstrike 6y ago
Wow. This must be the very first pro-MBA comment in the history of HN. Feels refreshing!
- marcus_holmes 6y ago
  Being a developer with an MBA is a rare combination ;) Worth it, from my experience.
- Mauricebranagh 6y ago
  A mature MBA done after 10-15 years experience is very different that some one who went from BSC direct to a MBA (to game immigration hurdles in a lot of cases)
- lmm 6y ago
  I think everyone agrees that bad management is the biggest problem facing a lot of software companies. The part that's disputed is whether managers with MBAs are actually any better than managers without them.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - marcus_holmes 6y ago
    I've been pondering this. I think an MBA will help you be a better manager if you want to be, because at least there's some clue about what a "good" manager should look like. I've met sooo many bad managers. In most cases they were bad because they didn't really know what they were doing and they felt they couldn't look "weak" or not be in charge. There's always the urge to authoritarian leadership because it's the default (for some reason). If the MBA course is any good, it will at least have exposed such a person to other leadership styles and some management theory. They might reject it, of course, but at least they'll know it. So, yeah, I don't think having an MBA makes you a better manager or leader automatically. But I think a manager who wants to get better could be helped by doing an MBA. Of course, there are lots of managers who are convinced they don't need to get better, and so won't/can't be helped. And there are lots of people who get MBA's because it's a ticket to promotion and don't really care about the learning.
    - lmm 6y ago
      > I think an MBA will help you be a better manager if you want to be, because at least there's some clue about what a "good" manager should look like. I think even that part is disputed; we really don't know what a good manager looks like. Some of what's taught in MBA classes now is the opposite of what was previously taught, and there seem to be as many failure stories as success stories. I do take your point that maybe just thinking about anything other than the authoritarian mode is enough to raise a manager above the average, which is distressingly plausible.
      - collyw 6y ago
        You know what a good manager looks like after they leave. It's like being a newsreader, you don't notice a good one but a bad one is very obvious.
lrossi 6y ago
What kind of resources would you suggest to someone who wants to get better at handling people problems?
- kingnothing 6y ago
  Depends on what you mean by "people problems". Perhaps read some books on negotiation if you have issues getting others to see your point of view. Nervous about speaking in front of a group? Try Toastmasters once the world opens back up, or hire a coach. Books are a good first resource once you identify the areas in which you want to grow.
- marcus_holmes 6y ago
  First define your problems ;) If you want to get into management and deal with those kinds of people problems, then there are lots of management training courses around. An MBA is at the upper end of that range. If you're having problems fitting into teams and getting along with people (actually quite common in dev teams), then maybe look at therapy or personal coaching. I spent a few years in therapy and it really helped. If it's office politics and the like - some workplaces are toxic. I can't deal with those even with the training and experience. Life's too short to deal with that bullshit ;)
- tiborsaas 6y ago
  You can also try therapy.
  - marcus_holmes 6y ago
    Totally agree with this. Knowing how to handle your own emotions is a key "people skill". And therapy really does help with this.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
asiachick 6y ago
What are some example of things you learned getting your MBA?
- marcus_holmes 6y ago
  There were lots of things I was curious about, like company financial records/statements, some of the legal stuff around employment. The accounting stuff was really useful. But the real wins were the leadership and management units, to my mind. Learning the "formal" knowledge around this has really helped in subsequent management roles. The entrepreneurship unit was vaguely hilarious, as I was running a blog for the local startup scene at the same time and neck-deep in Lean Startup, which no-one on the MBA course had heard of. Writing a really tight business plan seemed to be the hardest part of starting a business ;)
Tainnor 6y ago
> The tech is generally easy in commercial coding. There is usually a definitive answer, and if not then the trade-offs are generally well-known. It's rare to run into a problem that requires complex technical knowledge, and in those cases it's fine to hire a consultant to help. I'm totally on board with highlighting the importance of communication, team work, people skills (and I've seen how awful it is to work with people who lack these skills despite their technical expertise), etc. but this statement I simply cannot agree with. Everyone's experience is obviously different. Some people may work on problems where there are few legitimate technical challenges, or where they aren't solving any problems that haven't been solved before. That hasn't been my experience in most of the jobs I've had so far. There were significant architectural and sometimes even algorithmic challenges to be solved, and not solving them properly would mean either bugs or unmaintainable software. ITT we talk about the importance of communication, but good coding patterns and architecture (as well as the right level of documentation) are part of communicating to other developers.
- marcus_holmes 6y ago
  > There were significant architectural and sometimes even algorithmic challenges to be solved, and not solving them properly would mean either bugs or unmaintainable software. I get that, and I don't mean to suggest that some bits of this aren't tricky. But with an architectural problem (for example), it's usually a choice between 2 or 3 options. We know what the options are, we know what the trade-offs are, we can make guesses on what we think the impacts will be. It's a "known known" problem, with usually enough time to research it fully. Implementing it properly can be difficult, but that's the kind of thing that can be iterated if necessary - we don't have to get that right first time. There are lots of management and people problems where none of this is true and it's very much a "known unknown" that has to be got right on the first try, without knowing all the possible tradeoffs or consequences, and under time pressure.
  - Tainnor 6y ago
    > But with an architectural problem (for example), it's usually a choice between 2 or 3 options. We know what the options are, we know what the trade-offs are, we can make guesses on what we think the impacts will be. It's a "known known" problem, with usually enough time to research it fully. Implementing it properly can be difficult, but that's the kind of thing that can be iterated if necessary - we don't have to get that right first time. No, I disagree. Some problems are truly novel (or maybe, there are just a handful of competitors and you obviously can't see their source code) and you just don't even know what kinds of solutions might exist. There might be bits and pieces in the research literature, but good luck even finding them, let alone understand if they are applicable. The space of possible technical and architectural solutions is infinite-dimensional, so it's not always a "known known" issue. There might be crazy solutions out there that you simply didn't think of. Now, if it's about "create a CRUD interface to you e-commerce store", then I agree that the situation is more similar to what you described, but that's not what everyone is working on.
etripe 6y ago
Did you find the MBA trained you to solve those people problems better? Did you get any practical, hands-on experience dealing with people problems during its course, or did it provide an interpretational framework, with true learning follow afterwards, like with a programming degree?
- marcus_holmes 6y ago
  I think the latter. We studied formal models of leadership and management. Knowing those really helped me to put some kind of structure on the things that I was dealing with, but ultimately dealing with them came down to interpersonal skills and "walking the walk". One of the really useful-but-unexpected things was having some kind of head-canon for "what a manager is and isn't" and (in one case) "what a CEO should actually be doing". It was really helpful having a kind of connect-the-dots picture of what should be happening and therefore what dots needed to be connected to make that picture happen.
Torwald 6y ago
> and in those cases it's fine to hire a consultant to help. If I want to be that consultant, what area would be a good choice to become proficient in on that level?
- marcus_holmes 6y ago
  Pick a single niche and become expert in that niche. The more specific the niche, the less work you'll get but the higher you can charge for the work you do. Get known as the expert in that niche. Write a blog on it, talk at conferences about it. I don't know what areas would be good now, but I've hired consultants in scheduling problems, network setup and management, security, and recruitment. If I had to pick an area that will never go out of style: security. Get good at being able to secure an online system and you'll never be hungry.
potta_coffee 6y ago
I think this is on point but I've work with a lot of MBA's with garbage people skills. I'm not sold on the value of MBA except as a piece of paper on a resume. I'm not claiming that it is entirely not useful, but I don't believe it necessarily means someone is qualified either.

airstrike 6y ago

Wow. This must be the very first pro-MBA comment in the history of HN. Feels refreshing!

marcus_holmes 6y ago
Being a developer with an MBA is a rare combination ;) Worth it, from my experience.
Mauricebranagh 6y ago
A mature MBA done after 10-15 years experience is very different that some one who went from BSC direct to a MBA (to game immigration hurdles in a lot of cases)
lmm 6y ago
I think everyone agrees that bad management is the biggest problem facing a lot of software companies. The part that's disputed is whether managers with MBAs are actually any better than managers without them.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- marcus_holmes 6y ago
  I've been pondering this. I think an MBA will help you be a better manager if you want to be, because at least there's some clue about what a "good" manager should look like. I've met sooo many bad managers. In most cases they were bad because they didn't really know what they were doing and they felt they couldn't look "weak" or not be in charge. There's always the urge to authoritarian leadership because it's the default (for some reason). If the MBA course is any good, it will at least have exposed such a person to other leadership styles and some management theory. They might reject it, of course, but at least they'll know it. So, yeah, I don't think having an MBA makes you a better manager or leader automatically. But I think a manager who wants to get better could be helped by doing an MBA. Of course, there are lots of managers who are convinced they don't need to get better, and so won't/can't be helped. And there are lots of people who get MBA's because it's a ticket to promotion and don't really care about the learning.
  - lmm 6y ago
    > I think an MBA will help you be a better manager if you want to be, because at least there's some clue about what a "good" manager should look like. I think even that part is disputed; we really don't know what a good manager looks like. Some of what's taught in MBA classes now is the opposite of what was previously taught, and there seem to be as many failure stories as success stories. I do take your point that maybe just thinking about anything other than the authoritarian mode is enough to raise a manager above the average, which is distressingly plausible.
    - collyw 6y ago
      You know what a good manager looks like after they leave. It's like being a newsreader, you don't notice a good one but a bad one is very obvious.

lrossi 6y ago

What kind of resources would you suggest to someone who wants to get better at handling people problems?

kingnothing 6y ago
Depends on what you mean by "people problems". Perhaps read some books on negotiation if you have issues getting others to see your point of view. Nervous about speaking in front of a group? Try Toastmasters once the world opens back up, or hire a coach. Books are a good first resource once you identify the areas in which you want to grow.
marcus_holmes 6y ago
First define your problems ;) If you want to get into management and deal with those kinds of people problems, then there are lots of management training courses around. An MBA is at the upper end of that range. If you're having problems fitting into teams and getting along with people (actually quite common in dev teams), then maybe look at therapy or personal coaching. I spent a few years in therapy and it really helped. If it's office politics and the like - some workplaces are toxic. I can't deal with those even with the training and experience. Life's too short to deal with that bullshit ;)
tiborsaas 6y ago
You can also try therapy.
- marcus_holmes 6y ago
  Totally agree with this. Knowing how to handle your own emotions is a key "people skill". And therapy really does help with this.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

asiachick 6y ago

What are some example of things you learned getting your MBA?

marcus_holmes 6y ago
There were lots of things I was curious about, like company financial records/statements, some of the legal stuff around employment. The accounting stuff was really useful. But the real wins were the leadership and management units, to my mind. Learning the "formal" knowledge around this has really helped in subsequent management roles. The entrepreneurship unit was vaguely hilarious, as I was running a blog for the local startup scene at the same time and neck-deep in Lean Startup, which no-one on the MBA course had heard of. Writing a really tight business plan seemed to be the hardest part of starting a business ;)

Tainnor 6y ago

> The tech is generally easy in commercial coding. There is usually a definitive answer, and if not then the trade-offs are generally well-known. It's rare to run into a problem that requires complex technical knowledge, and in those cases it's fine to hire a consultant to help. I'm totally on board with highlighting the importance of communication, team work, people skills (and I've seen how awful it is to work with people who lack these skills despite their technical expertise), etc. but this statement I simply cannot agree with. Everyone's experience is obviously different. Some people may work on problems where there are few legitimate technical challenges, or where they aren't solving any problems that haven't been solved before. That hasn't been my experience in most of the jobs I've had so far. There were significant architectural and sometimes even algorithmic challenges to be solved, and not solving them properly would mean either bugs or unmaintainable software. ITT we talk about the importance of communication, but good coding patterns and architecture (as well as the right level of documentation) are part of communicating to other developers.

marcus_holmes 6y ago
> There were significant architectural and sometimes even algorithmic challenges to be solved, and not solving them properly would mean either bugs or unmaintainable software. I get that, and I don't mean to suggest that some bits of this aren't tricky. But with an architectural problem (for example), it's usually a choice between 2 or 3 options. We know what the options are, we know what the trade-offs are, we can make guesses on what we think the impacts will be. It's a "known known" problem, with usually enough time to research it fully. Implementing it properly can be difficult, but that's the kind of thing that can be iterated if necessary - we don't have to get that right first time. There are lots of management and people problems where none of this is true and it's very much a "known unknown" that has to be got right on the first try, without knowing all the possible tradeoffs or consequences, and under time pressure.
- Tainnor 6y ago
  > But with an architectural problem (for example), it's usually a choice between 2 or 3 options. We know what the options are, we know what the trade-offs are, we can make guesses on what we think the impacts will be. It's a "known known" problem, with usually enough time to research it fully. Implementing it properly can be difficult, but that's the kind of thing that can be iterated if necessary - we don't have to get that right first time. No, I disagree. Some problems are truly novel (or maybe, there are just a handful of competitors and you obviously can't see their source code) and you just don't even know what kinds of solutions might exist. There might be bits and pieces in the research literature, but good luck even finding them, let alone understand if they are applicable. The space of possible technical and architectural solutions is infinite-dimensional, so it's not always a "known known" issue. There might be crazy solutions out there that you simply didn't think of. Now, if it's about "create a CRUD interface to you e-commerce store", then I agree that the situation is more similar to what you described, but that's not what everyone is working on.

etripe 6y ago

Did you find the MBA trained you to solve those people problems better? Did you get any practical, hands-on experience dealing with people problems during its course, or did it provide an interpretational framework, with true learning follow afterwards, like with a programming degree?

marcus_holmes 6y ago
I think the latter. We studied formal models of leadership and management. Knowing those really helped me to put some kind of structure on the things that I was dealing with, but ultimately dealing with them came down to interpersonal skills and "walking the walk". One of the really useful-but-unexpected things was having some kind of head-canon for "what a manager is and isn't" and (in one case) "what a CEO should actually be doing". It was really helpful having a kind of connect-the-dots picture of what should be happening and therefore what dots needed to be connected to make that picture happen.

Torwald 6y ago

> and in those cases it's fine to hire a consultant to help. If I want to be that consultant, what area would be a good choice to become proficient in on that level?

marcus_holmes 6y ago
Pick a single niche and become expert in that niche. The more specific the niche, the less work you'll get but the higher you can charge for the work you do. Get known as the expert in that niche. Write a blog on it, talk at conferences about it. I don't know what areas would be good now, but I've hired consultants in scheduling problems, network setup and management, security, and recruitment. If I had to pick an area that will never go out of style: security. Get good at being able to secure an online system and you'll never be hungry.

potta_coffee 6y ago

I think this is on point but I've work with a lot of MBA's with garbage people skills. I'm not sold on the value of MBA except as a piece of paper on a resume. I'm not claiming that it is entirely not useful, but I don't believe it necessarily means someone is qualified either.