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See, you're not actually contradicting me, just finding a justification for why the US is to the world what China is to its citizens. > They can also threaten

See, you're not actually contradicting me, just finding a justification for why the US is to the world what China is to its citizens. > They can also threaten economic and political retaliation. Sure but threats and negotiations work if you actually have the bigger gun and leverage. Given that the US is both the largest economy and military power this feels like a moot point. > Europe has failed to protect itself against US power Yes, just like Chinese citizens failed to protect themselves against their leadership. They aren't just a tiny South American nation, they are 1.3bn people who want freedom. That they failed to successfully do this is the fault of the people and no one else. But really, the fact the EU stood quietly next to the US while the US tightened its grip on the world is indeed a failure of the EU (Europe, given that this started happening long before the EU). They took the easy road of growing in someone else's shade, even if post WW2 it may have been the best or only thing Europe could have done. This doesn't change anything about my characterization of the US, it's just a tangent. I'm not saying what China is doing is ok because the US does it too. But just like OP, I pointed out the double standards obvious even here on HN. Whether it's mis- or dis-information, ignorance, hypocrisy, cognitive dissonance, or whatever else you may call it, the fact that people hold 2 completely different and opposing opinions on the same kind of action differentiated only by "us vs. them" is a massive failure of those people.

marcinzm 6y ago
>Sure but threats and negotiations work if you actually have the bigger gun and leverage. Given that the US is both the largest economy and military power this feels like a moot point. China's growing influence and Russia's influence on international politics clearly show that it's not about absolute power but how you apply it. Europe is large enough and powerful enough that the US can't invade it or cause massive economic damage without significantly hurting itself. Europe has massive leverage in negotiations and politics and diplomacy. It just fails to use it likely because it's not unified enough to fully and quickly apply it. Please stop blaming Europe's diplomatic failures on external factors. All that does is ensure that they will continue to happen because you won't blame the government that is actually at fault.
- buran77 6y ago
  Replying this: > Please stop blaming Europe's diplomatic failures on external factors After I clearly stated this: >> But really, the fact the EU stood quietly next to the US while the US tightened its grip on the world is indeed a failure of the EU [...] They took the easy road of growing in someone else's shade Is a sign that you did not bother to read, let alone understand my comment. That is terribly disrespectful and a sign that you have no interest in a discussion, just a monologue of meritless opinions.
  - marcinzm 6y ago
    Your posts can be summarized as "Europe messed up in the past but now it's totally not their fault because the US is just too big to do anything." My post was "the US isn't that big and Europe has plenty of options so Europe is still messing up due to it's own fault even if you keep deflecting that point."
    - buran77 6y ago
      No, my comments (direct response to OP's "why are we pretending what US is doing is different form what China is doing") can be summarized as "pretending China and the US are different is just un/mis/disinformed or hypocritical". They are both superpowers and they both resort to any measures within their grasp to maintain or increase that power. Pretending otherwise is just euphemistically "double standards". The EU only appeared in the discussion as a reference or "witness", just like the Chinese people are used as reference for what their leadership is doing. You turning the discussion towards some EU blame for whatever isn't only a meritless distraction from the topic, it's also akin to blaming the Chinese people for not overthrowing the CCP. They are 1.3bn people, surely they have "massive leverage". I reiterate, you have no interest in reading or understanding any of my comments. The extent to which you perverted and rewrote my words just to fit whatever narrative you're more easily able to support really makes for low quality discussion. I have more than adequately made and supported my point and will politely withdraw.
paulryanrogers 6y ago
> ... they [Chinese citizens] are 1.3bn people who want freedom. Is there evidence that a significant portion of the population really do want more freedom? While I would hope so it's possible the majority there prefer the status quo. (Of course lack of evidence doesn't prove it.)
- buran77 6y ago
  I have no evidence either way, the truth might as well be in the middle (many like it, many hate it). In an attempt to show how "double standard" GP's opinion was I just repurposed the argument that one party failing to counteract an opponent which has more power than them, being dominated instead, is entirely the fault of the weaker party. I replaced "the EU" with "the Chinese people". To my surprise GP went on to confirm even this exaggerated interpretation of mine, later adding that allowing them to make the mistake and implicitly paying for it is the only way the weaker party will learn to be strong. Such opinions are far too cynical and extremist for my taste.

marcinzm 6y ago

>Sure but threats and negotiations work if you actually have the bigger gun and leverage. Given that the US is both the largest economy and military power this feels like a moot point. China's growing influence and Russia's influence on international politics clearly show that it's not about absolute power but how you apply it. Europe is large enough and powerful enough that the US can't invade it or cause massive economic damage without significantly hurting itself. Europe has massive leverage in negotiations and politics and diplomacy. It just fails to use it likely because it's not unified enough to fully and quickly apply it. Please stop blaming Europe's diplomatic failures on external factors. All that does is ensure that they will continue to happen because you won't blame the government that is actually at fault.

buran77 6y ago
Replying this: > Please stop blaming Europe's diplomatic failures on external factors After I clearly stated this: >> But really, the fact the EU stood quietly next to the US while the US tightened its grip on the world is indeed a failure of the EU [...] They took the easy road of growing in someone else's shade Is a sign that you did not bother to read, let alone understand my comment. That is terribly disrespectful and a sign that you have no interest in a discussion, just a monologue of meritless opinions.
- marcinzm 6y ago
  Your posts can be summarized as "Europe messed up in the past but now it's totally not their fault because the US is just too big to do anything." My post was "the US isn't that big and Europe has plenty of options so Europe is still messing up due to it's own fault even if you keep deflecting that point."
  - buran77 6y ago
    No, my comments (direct response to OP's "why are we pretending what US is doing is different form what China is doing") can be summarized as "pretending China and the US are different is just un/mis/disinformed or hypocritical". They are both superpowers and they both resort to any measures within their grasp to maintain or increase that power. Pretending otherwise is just euphemistically "double standards". The EU only appeared in the discussion as a reference or "witness", just like the Chinese people are used as reference for what their leadership is doing. You turning the discussion towards some EU blame for whatever isn't only a meritless distraction from the topic, it's also akin to blaming the Chinese people for not overthrowing the CCP. They are 1.3bn people, surely they have "massive leverage". I reiterate, you have no interest in reading or understanding any of my comments. The extent to which you perverted and rewrote my words just to fit whatever narrative you're more easily able to support really makes for low quality discussion. I have more than adequately made and supported my point and will politely withdraw.

paulryanrogers 6y ago

> ... they [Chinese citizens] are 1.3bn people who want freedom. Is there evidence that a significant portion of the population really do want more freedom? While I would hope so it's possible the majority there prefer the status quo. (Of course lack of evidence doesn't prove it.)

buran77 6y ago
I have no evidence either way, the truth might as well be in the middle (many like it, many hate it). In an attempt to show how "double standard" GP's opinion was I just repurposed the argument that one party failing to counteract an opponent which has more power than them, being dominated instead, is entirely the fault of the weaker party. I replaced "the EU" with "the Chinese people". To my surprise GP went on to confirm even this exaggerated interpretation of mine, later adding that allowing them to make the mistake and implicitly paying for it is the only way the weaker party will learn to be strong. Such opinions are far too cynical and extremist for my taste.