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European countries are free to take whatever actions they see fit against US companies. China is an authoritarian state and it's respect for the individual rig

European countries are free to take whatever actions they see fit against US companies. China is an authoritarian state and it's respect for the individual rights of people is nowhere near that of the US.

hnlmorg 6y ago
> European countries are free to take whatever actions they see fit against US companies. And the EU does. But ironically whenever that happens Americans argue that such action isn't about privacy but instead about the EU trying to promote their own domestic industries. Though I guess that same spin would likely be argued by those on the receiving end of the US/China ban too.
- marcinzm 6y ago
  >And the EU does. But ironically whenever that happens Americans argue that such action isn't about privacy but instead about the EU trying to promote their own domestic industries. International politics isn't fair or just or honest. However that's been known since probably before written history. So of course the US will spin things with propaganda and false statements and whatever. You can't change it or impact it or do stop it directly. So blame Europe for not successfully countering it rather than the US for knowing how to play the game.
  - patrickmcnamara 6y ago
    I don't think Europe needs to counter it as American opinions on this sort of action don't matter to most Europeans. I think the user above was more likely calling out the HN community for its double standards with regards to this.
  - ku-man 6y ago
    "So blame Europe for not successfully countering it rather than the US for knowing how to play the game." Says the bully.
  - buran77 6y ago
    > So blame Europe for not successfully countering it rather than the US for knowing how to play the game. Can this be applied to any situation where one party found itself (through error, inaction, incompetence, inability, etc.) in a position to be dominated or abused by anther party? Or is it only selectively applied based on personal preference or inclination? Because applying it selectively is exactly the double standards people (myself included) highlighted in this thread. This may be pragmatic but it's also vicious towards the losing party. Politicians or corporations bribing or abusing power to get away with anything know how to play the game. The people being abused or losing everything are to blame for not successfully countering them. Double standards are a good way to justify anything to your advantage by simply flipping the argument the way it suits you. As I wrote in a previous comment, it makes for exceptionally low quality conversation.
    - marcinzm 6y ago
      In my view, yes, when the party being dominated or abused has massive power itself. This isn't about a small entity being abused by a large entity no matter how much you seem to want it framed as such. It's two incomprehensibly massive and powerful entities going at at with one losing due to its own actions. edit: This is the only view I see that allows the losing entity to learn from the experience and avoid it in the future. Any other view just results in the same thing happening again in the future.
      - buran77 6y ago
        > when the party being dominated or abused has massive power itself The expected "relativistic" cop-out. "Massive" means nothing if your opponent has substantially more. It simply means that no matter how much you want to escalate they can take it a notch higher and you will suffer just a bit more than your opponent. There are examples literally all around you. > This is the only view I see that allows the losing entity to learn from the experience The only way? It is a way best used when everything else has failed, like education. Am I to understand that you learned everything from personal experience? If you truly believe things are only ever learned on your own skin then you understand close to nothing about the world, history, and consequences, not living through almost any of them yourself. Which explains the narrow view.
notsureaboutpg 6y ago
So what? I genuinely don't get it. If the app spies on you so what? Facebook spies on you. So do Twitter and Google. The average person doesn't watch Citizen four or care how much these companies spy on them. The average person is happy to get free Facebook in exchange for them spying. Why can't Chinese apps do the same? It's all bull. What you're saying about China is true but it has nothing to do with AliPay vs Google/Facebook/Twitter
cpursley 6y ago
Is this really about human rights (while made in China iPhones are still sold in the USA)? Any chance that it's just protectionism against Chinese companies (Huawei, Ali)?
buran77 6y ago
There's a lot to unpack here. But no, European countries can't realistically take too many measures, mostly under the threat of economic and political retaliation. No more than Chinese citizens are free to take whatever actions they see fit against their leadership. We're all free to take any action we want but it's not freedom if we can't exercise it out of fear of retaliation. You can see this in action with most EU countries disagreeing with many sanctions imposed on US enemies but eventually caving under pressure from the US. Or when having to switch the frequencies used for the Galileo system to something that could be more easily jammed by the US. The US is exhibiting towards other countries the same kind of tyrannical behavior bent on maintaining power that the Chinese leadership is exercising towards its citizens. It's the age old need to maintain power, and the more power, the further you're willing to go to maintain it. From a global surveillance exercise where every human is spied on relentlessly, to meddling into most countries internal affairs to the point of changing regimes to suit them, to oppressing their own citizens. These are all publicly and officially documented issues. It's all great if and only if your interests align. If you cannot acknowledge this then you are certainly not prepared to have a discussion beyond "we're good, they're bad".
- bagacrap 6y ago
  I don't think the US is the same as China even if the US isn't perfect. The CCP actually commits genocide, takes political prisoners, and its justice system is a kangaroo court. Compare that to the US which spies on people and is taken to court for even attempting to kill a citizen who's become an enemy combatant in a warzone and has a justice system which often invalidates the actions of the legislative branch. Europe with GDPR does set its own rules for how American tech can operate and penalizes them heavily for perceived infractions. So that continent is taking the actions they want to take which is their right. Beyond that, there are more examples: Spain did effectively shut down Google News, and I don't remember any retaliation.
  - buran77 6y ago
    Look at the wars the US continuously waged over the past decades and count the the deaths and destruction. You can rationalize it any way you want if it makes you feel better, you can pretend it's a fight for freedom on one side, and a fight for oppression on the other, you can say those school children were just combatants. But in the end it's the same on either side: those with power kill to maintain it. Some kill locally, some kill globally. On the other hand the examples you gave are absolutely minor and barely noteworthy. I referred decisions with global impact, not inconsequential things like Google News being affected in Spain. Intel never payed the fine the EU imposed for unfair practices close to a decade ago. Facebook and Google barely saw a blip due to GDPR since it was basically (and legally it seems) rolled into their ToS. The real consequential things are the public support the US demands from the EU for sanctions or wars. For political and economical issues that involve far more than you mentioned as a counterpoint. For countless human lives lost.
swiley 6y ago
I'd add to this (as a US citizen) please take action against US companies. The last time, with Microsoft, it was a very good thing for the US, the EU, the World, and the internet.

hnlmorg 6y ago

> European countries are free to take whatever actions they see fit against US companies. And the EU does. But ironically whenever that happens Americans argue that such action isn't about privacy but instead about the EU trying to promote their own domestic industries. Though I guess that same spin would likely be argued by those on the receiving end of the US/China ban too.

marcinzm 6y ago
>And the EU does. But ironically whenever that happens Americans argue that such action isn't about privacy but instead about the EU trying to promote their own domestic industries. International politics isn't fair or just or honest. However that's been known since probably before written history. So of course the US will spin things with propaganda and false statements and whatever. You can't change it or impact it or do stop it directly. So blame Europe for not successfully countering it rather than the US for knowing how to play the game.
- patrickmcnamara 6y ago
  I don't think Europe needs to counter it as American opinions on this sort of action don't matter to most Europeans. I think the user above was more likely calling out the HN community for its double standards with regards to this.
- ku-man 6y ago
  "So blame Europe for not successfully countering it rather than the US for knowing how to play the game." Says the bully.
- buran77 6y ago
  > So blame Europe for not successfully countering it rather than the US for knowing how to play the game. Can this be applied to any situation where one party found itself (through error, inaction, incompetence, inability, etc.) in a position to be dominated or abused by anther party? Or is it only selectively applied based on personal preference or inclination? Because applying it selectively is exactly the double standards people (myself included) highlighted in this thread. This may be pragmatic but it's also vicious towards the losing party. Politicians or corporations bribing or abusing power to get away with anything know how to play the game. The people being abused or losing everything are to blame for not successfully countering them. Double standards are a good way to justify anything to your advantage by simply flipping the argument the way it suits you. As I wrote in a previous comment, it makes for exceptionally low quality conversation.
  - marcinzm 6y ago
    In my view, yes, when the party being dominated or abused has massive power itself. This isn't about a small entity being abused by a large entity no matter how much you seem to want it framed as such. It's two incomprehensibly massive and powerful entities going at at with one losing due to its own actions. edit: This is the only view I see that allows the losing entity to learn from the experience and avoid it in the future. Any other view just results in the same thing happening again in the future.
    - buran77 6y ago
      > when the party being dominated or abused has massive power itself The expected "relativistic" cop-out. "Massive" means nothing if your opponent has substantially more. It simply means that no matter how much you want to escalate they can take it a notch higher and you will suffer just a bit more than your opponent. There are examples literally all around you. > This is the only view I see that allows the losing entity to learn from the experience The only way? It is a way best used when everything else has failed, like education. Am I to understand that you learned everything from personal experience? If you truly believe things are only ever learned on your own skin then you understand close to nothing about the world, history, and consequences, not living through almost any of them yourself. Which explains the narrow view.

notsureaboutpg 6y ago

So what? I genuinely don't get it. If the app spies on you so what? Facebook spies on you. So do Twitter and Google. The average person doesn't watch Citizen four or care how much these companies spy on them. The average person is happy to get free Facebook in exchange for them spying. Why can't Chinese apps do the same? It's all bull. What you're saying about China is true but it has nothing to do with AliPay vs Google/Facebook/Twitter

cpursley 6y ago

Is this really about human rights (while made in China iPhones are still sold in the USA)? Any chance that it's just protectionism against Chinese companies (Huawei, Ali)?

buran77 6y ago

There's a lot to unpack here. But no, European countries can't realistically take too many measures, mostly under the threat of economic and political retaliation. No more than Chinese citizens are free to take whatever actions they see fit against their leadership. We're all free to take any action we want but it's not freedom if we can't exercise it out of fear of retaliation. You can see this in action with most EU countries disagreeing with many sanctions imposed on US enemies but eventually caving under pressure from the US. Or when having to switch the frequencies used for the Galileo system to something that could be more easily jammed by the US. The US is exhibiting towards other countries the same kind of tyrannical behavior bent on maintaining power that the Chinese leadership is exercising towards its citizens. It's the age old need to maintain power, and the more power, the further you're willing to go to maintain it. From a global surveillance exercise where every human is spied on relentlessly, to meddling into most countries internal affairs to the point of changing regimes to suit them, to oppressing their own citizens. These are all publicly and officially documented issues. It's all great if and only if your interests align. If you cannot acknowledge this then you are certainly not prepared to have a discussion beyond "we're good, they're bad".

bagacrap 6y ago
I don't think the US is the same as China even if the US isn't perfect. The CCP actually commits genocide, takes political prisoners, and its justice system is a kangaroo court. Compare that to the US which spies on people and is taken to court for even attempting to kill a citizen who's become an enemy combatant in a warzone and has a justice system which often invalidates the actions of the legislative branch. Europe with GDPR does set its own rules for how American tech can operate and penalizes them heavily for perceived infractions. So that continent is taking the actions they want to take which is their right. Beyond that, there are more examples: Spain did effectively shut down Google News, and I don't remember any retaliation.
- buran77 6y ago
  Look at the wars the US continuously waged over the past decades and count the the deaths and destruction. You can rationalize it any way you want if it makes you feel better, you can pretend it's a fight for freedom on one side, and a fight for oppression on the other, you can say those school children were just combatants. But in the end it's the same on either side: those with power kill to maintain it. Some kill locally, some kill globally. On the other hand the examples you gave are absolutely minor and barely noteworthy. I referred decisions with global impact, not inconsequential things like Google News being affected in Spain. Intel never payed the fine the EU imposed for unfair practices close to a decade ago. Facebook and Google barely saw a blip due to GDPR since it was basically (and legally it seems) rolled into their ToS. The real consequential things are the public support the US demands from the EU for sanctions or wars. For political and economical issues that involve far more than you mentioned as a counterpoint. For countless human lives lost.

swiley 6y ago

I'd add to this (as a US citizen) please take action against US companies. The last time, with Microsoft, it was a very good thing for the US, the EU, the World, and the internet.