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So when American companies invade the privacy of European citizens its okay, but when Chinese companies do the same with American citizens this is "digital tota

So when American companies invade the privacy of European citizens its okay, but when Chinese companies do the same with American citizens this is "digital totalitarianism"? Anyone care to explain this to me?

tsujp 6y ago
America's foreign policy (as a government as evidenced through history and present-day) is to police and/or spy on the world but not to be policed and/or spied on.
- secondcoming 6y ago
  That's not just America's foreign policy though. Even Denmark has an espionage unit.
  - tsujp 6y ago
    I'd assume everyone does; the person I am replying to asked for someone to explain it to them so I have.
- meepmorp 6y ago
  Everyone wants to spy, nobody wants to be spied on. It's a typical part of what we call international power politics and it's been going on for roughly all of human history. I honestly don't understand the point you're tying to make. Are you just complaining that it's unfair?
  - tsujp 6y ago
    Yes, I know. The comment I am replying to states: Anyone care to explain this to me? So I am explaining it. If you want my own view: On this situation I don't care.
    - meepmorp 6y ago
      Sorry, my caffeine uptake seems to be a bit slower than usual today.
    - buran77 6y ago
      I think the question was on the lines of "why do people think it's ok when their country does it but not ok when others do it". The answer if simple: ignorance and cognitive dissonance (hypocrisy?). Ignorance because most aren't even aware their own country engages in the exact same tactics and even far worse. And cognitive dissonance because "I must be good so my opponent must be bad" [0]. [0] https://pics.onsizzle.com/our-blessed-homeland-their-barbarous-wastes-our-glorious-leader-their-30162740.png https://pics.onsizzle.com/our-blessed-homeland-their-barbaro...
  - dgb23 6y ago
    That comes of as cynical and reductionist. I don't want to be spied on and I don't want my country to spy on anyone.
    - cloverich 6y ago
      Unfortunatley that's just the way the world works. We don't have world peace yet, and have plenty of countries that if not outright hostile in the rhetoric and stance, have the capacity to elect leaders who could change those stances. All of those countries have complex sets of relationships with one another, and its not a given that if your country is attacked (and is not the US or some other super power), that someone else will come and defend it. The concern over China is, of course, quite a bit more obvious given the _ongoing_ abuse of their own citizens.
echelon 6y ago
I'm a liberal, but I agree with Trump on this. The world needs to stop China. China is stealing Western tech to gain an economic and strategic advantage. They're going to out-compete our tech and leave us in the dust. They have far more engineers that are willing to work "996". (Sure, founders might work "996", but our workforce doesn't/can't/won't.) Playing unfair isn't great, but it's not the most worrying component of this. Our opponent has concentration camps, organ harvesting, no free press, crushes dissidents, disappears billionaires. And this is a regime that wants world domination. This gives me nightmares. We should be doing everything in our power to disentangle and stop China. When China has a military that surpasses the US in terms of scale and tech, they're going to start invading and taking more than they already do. They've shut off water to Vietnam, set up shop in the energy/resource-rich South China Sea, etc. They're not going to stop. Our media is already censored and caters to Chinese tastes. None of our movies are ever critical of China. They're actively manipulating us. Western democracies aren't primed to fight this. This is such a lopsided fight. We have to start playing hardball. edit: I'm being censored right now. This is the game we're playing.
- zthrowaway 6y ago
  Yup this is exactly the point. Everyone can throw around all the whataboutism they want in this discussion (which there will be plenty) but this remains true in the end. We’re also I’ll equipped right now to fight this, our culture is divided and most of the intellectuals in power are more concerned about seeing everything through the social justice lens. So anything we do against China for our own national safety is being chalked up as racism etc. China sees this and is taking full advantage. I hope Biden takes a strong stance on China domination so at least one end of the political spectrum can be convinced to get on board here. We can’t just simply out battle evil regimes like we could in the past. Each major power (Russia, China, US) has weaponry that could destroy the world if unleashed against each other. We are at a turning point in world history. So we have to fight this on the economic level, banning apps is part of this strategy.
  - sergiotapia 6y ago
    US: "It's now latinx!" China: "Let's edit the genes of babies and make them 47% stronger."
throwaway6734 6y ago
European countries are free to take whatever actions they see fit against US companies. China is an authoritarian state and it's respect for the individual rights of people is nowhere near that of the US.
- hnlmorg 6y ago
  > European countries are free to take whatever actions they see fit against US companies. And the EU does. But ironically whenever that happens Americans argue that such action isn't about privacy but instead about the EU trying to promote their own domestic industries. Though I guess that same spin would likely be argued by those on the receiving end of the US/China ban too.
  - marcinzm 6y ago
    >And the EU does. But ironically whenever that happens Americans argue that such action isn't about privacy but instead about the EU trying to promote their own domestic industries. International politics isn't fair or just or honest. However that's been known since probably before written history. So of course the US will spin things with propaganda and false statements and whatever. You can't change it or impact it or do stop it directly. So blame Europe for not successfully countering it rather than the US for knowing how to play the game.
    - patrickmcnamara 6y ago
      I don't think Europe needs to counter it as American opinions on this sort of action don't matter to most Europeans. I think the user above was more likely calling out the HN community for its double standards with regards to this.
    - ku-man 6y ago
      "So blame Europe for not successfully countering it rather than the US for knowing how to play the game." Says the bully.
    - buran77 6y ago
joncrane 6y ago
It's rational. The US government exists to protect and promote the interests of US citizens and companies. So it is the US's job to protect its citizens from foreign surveillance. I'd say it's Europe's job to protect its citizens from foreign surveillance. It's not "OK" so much as "Not my job."
- toxik 6y ago
  If only the European continent would form some kind of trade based union Edit: parent comment said something like "Europe is a continent"
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jshmrsn 6y ago
At a basic level, I agree there’s not a fundamental difference. But I think it’s reasonable to look at practical differences between China and the US and consider which one you’d prefer to be secretly recording your personal data. The US has cultural and constitutional support of free speech, due process, and independent judiciary. On the flip-side, the US has PRISM, theocrats, an insane president, and a history of covert violent foreign intervention. China has little support for freedom of speech, separation of powers, etc.. And is frequently accused of extrajudicially disappearing people for their speech/beliefs. I think at present I’d still significantly prefer the US over China to secretly collect my personal data (even if I wasn’t a US citizen). It’s certainly possible that difference will further erode over time. I don’t necessarily mean to endorse banning Chinese apps, as that seems very problematic and arguably cuts against our own value system. It’s always seemed very protectionist when China did that to us, and it seems the same when we do it to them, and comes with the same surface area for corporate corruption of our government.
- f6v 6y ago
  But does this make a difference in practice? I’ve been to China only for short business trips, so I can’t judge. But when I looked at the city and talked to people in China and outside of it, I didn’t get an impression people are oppressed or suffering. I don’t claim I have the evidence, but it’s just that so many people here paint a grim picture and I’m afraid it’s only based on US propaganda.
  - nostromo 6y ago
    Yes, it’s very different. Here’s a Chinese interrogation video of a “suspect” being interrogated for posting a comment mildly criticizing the local police on QQ: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiMLVYK4hEc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiMLVYK4hEc
    - f6v 6y ago
      How do you know it’s not staged?
  - 6y ago
puppymaster 6y ago
Not that hard for me. Americans have criticized, sued and raised awareness about their government misconducts, with little repercussions. Joseph Gordon-Levitt didn't get persecuted for playing Snowden. Adam Driver didn't receive state sanctioned intimidation for playing Daniel J. Jones. Director, screenwriters, producers and etc get to live their life normally. Can you imagine what will happen to Fan Bing Bing if she plays Chai Ling (One of Tiananmen Square student leader)? So to answer your question - no it's not okay. But I would expect HN audience to be able to see the obvious distinctions.
- echelon 6y ago
  It's ironic that you mention Hollywood, because our studios are now catering to CCP sensibilities. You'll never see a film critical of China made domestically. Our studios want access to the Chinese market and they know that if they produce such a film, they'll be blacklisted. This is why we need top-down decoupling. China knows we're addicted, and they've got us in a good spot to continue growing off of our market.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - jimbob45 6y ago
    Isn’t it the case that only 10 or so US movies are allowed in China in any given year? I figure that we optimize our 10 movies for China and then leave the rest alone.
  - hertzrat 6y ago
    It’s happening in gaming too. The most recent thing in memory was something Blizzard did, and apparently the word Taiwan is censored in all chats in PubG[1] [1] https://venturebeat.com/2018/11/15/chinese-censorship-affects-games-everywhere-and-its-getting-bigger/ https://venturebeat.com/2018/11/15/chinese-censorship-affect...
- trasz 6y ago
  McCarthy’s commission existed till... early seventies?
jonathanstrange 6y ago
It's not okay in any of these cases.
exabrial 6y ago
Your assumptions in your otherwise sound argument are flawed. Alipay is the Chinese government for all intents and purposes. 100% of your information for freely to the CCP for their purposes. We're not talking preferring one company over another, we're taking preferring a free market company over a state sponsored actor.
Veen 6y ago
It's not difficult to explain. The American government acts in the interests of Americans (or attempts to do so). European governments act in the interests of Europeans. The Chinese government likewise. Their rhetoric reflects those goals. What's the alternative: governments that act against the interests of their population in order to conform to notions of morality that only really apply to individuals? Governments exist to serve a specific population, not humanity as a whole.
- jfengel 6y ago
  In each case, you also have to consider the possibility that each government is acting in the best interest not of the governed, but of the individual or group doing the governing. Is this genuinely in the interest of America, or just in the interest of the person making the decision? That's a question you always have to ask, but it seems particularly pertinent in the case of a leader who has been issuing numerous baseless complaints about various opponents, whose actions have repeatedly been refused by courts, and who was denied a second term. So while it's true that the government doesn't need to act in the interests of anybody but its own citizens, it would be nice to know if this decision achieves even that much -- or if it's just spite.
  - Veen 6y ago
    > In each case, you also have to consider the possibility that each government is acting in the best interest not of the governed, but of the individual or group doing the governin That's absolutely true, which is why we have courts, representative legislatures, and elections. Methods of mitigating the corruption of the governing class are built into the system. It doesn't work quickly or perfectly, but it's better than autocracy.
higerordermap 6y ago
Does US ban European apps? Does Republican Party / Democratic party inject a director into every big tech company? Then why should Europe ban US apps?
hnarn 6y ago
GDPR applies for American companies in the EU, so to answer your question, no, it’s not “OK”.
csomar 6y ago
It's true the US has been promoting "freedom" throughout the world, but at the end of the day they should only care about their own citizens or interests.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
tyfytyf 6y ago
Some opinions from UK[1]. Although they’re not part of Europe any more. But you got the idea. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-31/china-and-russia-must-not-be-post-covid-winners-u-k-envoy-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-31/china-and...
- switch007 6y ago
  We left the EU but we didn't drift out in to the middle of the Atlantic in the process :-)
partiallypro 6y ago
China just jailed a number of pro-Democratic leaders in Hong Kong, and have now shown they are willing to pursue people outside of their own borders that are a threat to the CCP. I'm sure they will be using meta data to justify their arrests. I don't see how any reasonable person can compare the two.
kube-system 6y ago
When American companies invade the privacy of European citizens, it's because Facebook is collecting marketing data to make a buck. The concerns the US has about these Chinese companies is not that these companies are collecting too much marketing data, but that the CCP has coopted them into doing espionage operations on their behalf. Note that the US didn't care about these Chinese companies back when they were only collecting marketing data. It has only been since Xi's recent consolidation of power and crackdown on the autonomy of big tech that these issues have been hot topics.

tsujp 6y ago

America's foreign policy (as a government as evidenced through history and present-day) is to police and/or spy on the world but not to be policed and/or spied on.

secondcoming 6y ago
That's not just America's foreign policy though. Even Denmark has an espionage unit.
- tsujp 6y ago
  I'd assume everyone does; the person I am replying to asked for someone to explain it to them so I have.
meepmorp 6y ago
Everyone wants to spy, nobody wants to be spied on. It's a typical part of what we call international power politics and it's been going on for roughly all of human history. I honestly don't understand the point you're tying to make. Are you just complaining that it's unfair?
- tsujp 6y ago
  Yes, I know. The comment I am replying to states: Anyone care to explain this to me? So I am explaining it. If you want my own view: On this situation I don't care.
  - meepmorp 6y ago
    Sorry, my caffeine uptake seems to be a bit slower than usual today.
  - buran77 6y ago
    I think the question was on the lines of "why do people think it's ok when their country does it but not ok when others do it". The answer if simple: ignorance and cognitive dissonance (hypocrisy?). Ignorance because most aren't even aware their own country engages in the exact same tactics and even far worse. And cognitive dissonance because "I must be good so my opponent must be bad" [0]. [0] https://pics.onsizzle.com/our-blessed-homeland-their-barbarous-wastes-our-glorious-leader-their-30162740.png https://pics.onsizzle.com/our-blessed-homeland-their-barbaro...
- dgb23 6y ago
  That comes of as cynical and reductionist. I don't want to be spied on and I don't want my country to spy on anyone.
  - cloverich 6y ago
    Unfortunatley that's just the way the world works. We don't have world peace yet, and have plenty of countries that if not outright hostile in the rhetoric and stance, have the capacity to elect leaders who could change those stances. All of those countries have complex sets of relationships with one another, and its not a given that if your country is attacked (and is not the US or some other super power), that someone else will come and defend it. The concern over China is, of course, quite a bit more obvious given the _ongoing_ abuse of their own citizens.

echelon 6y ago

I'm a liberal, but I agree with Trump on this. The world needs to stop China. China is stealing Western tech to gain an economic and strategic advantage. They're going to out-compete our tech and leave us in the dust. They have far more engineers that are willing to work "996". (Sure, founders might work "996", but our workforce doesn't/can't/won't.) Playing unfair isn't great, but it's not the most worrying component of this. Our opponent has concentration camps, organ harvesting, no free press, crushes dissidents, disappears billionaires. And this is a regime that wants world domination. This gives me nightmares. We should be doing everything in our power to disentangle and stop China. When China has a military that surpasses the US in terms of scale and tech, they're going to start invading and taking more than they already do. They've shut off water to Vietnam, set up shop in the energy/resource-rich South China Sea, etc. They're not going to stop. Our media is already censored and caters to Chinese tastes. None of our movies are ever critical of China. They're actively manipulating us. Western democracies aren't primed to fight this. This is such a lopsided fight. We have to start playing hardball. edit: I'm being censored right now. This is the game we're playing.

zthrowaway 6y ago
Yup this is exactly the point. Everyone can throw around all the whataboutism they want in this discussion (which there will be plenty) but this remains true in the end. We’re also I’ll equipped right now to fight this, our culture is divided and most of the intellectuals in power are more concerned about seeing everything through the social justice lens. So anything we do against China for our own national safety is being chalked up as racism etc. China sees this and is taking full advantage. I hope Biden takes a strong stance on China domination so at least one end of the political spectrum can be convinced to get on board here. We can’t just simply out battle evil regimes like we could in the past. Each major power (Russia, China, US) has weaponry that could destroy the world if unleashed against each other. We are at a turning point in world history. So we have to fight this on the economic level, banning apps is part of this strategy.
- sergiotapia 6y ago
  US: "It's now latinx!" China: "Let's edit the genes of babies and make them 47% stronger."

throwaway6734 6y ago

European countries are free to take whatever actions they see fit against US companies. China is an authoritarian state and it's respect for the individual rights of people is nowhere near that of the US.

hnlmorg 6y ago
> European countries are free to take whatever actions they see fit against US companies. And the EU does. But ironically whenever that happens Americans argue that such action isn't about privacy but instead about the EU trying to promote their own domestic industries. Though I guess that same spin would likely be argued by those on the receiving end of the US/China ban too.
- marcinzm 6y ago
  >And the EU does. But ironically whenever that happens Americans argue that such action isn't about privacy but instead about the EU trying to promote their own domestic industries. International politics isn't fair or just or honest. However that's been known since probably before written history. So of course the US will spin things with propaganda and false statements and whatever. You can't change it or impact it or do stop it directly. So blame Europe for not successfully countering it rather than the US for knowing how to play the game.
  - patrickmcnamara 6y ago
    I don't think Europe needs to counter it as American opinions on this sort of action don't matter to most Europeans. I think the user above was more likely calling out the HN community for its double standards with regards to this.
  - ku-man 6y ago
    "So blame Europe for not successfully countering it rather than the US for knowing how to play the game." Says the bully.
  - buran77 6y ago

joncrane 6y ago

It's rational. The US government exists to protect and promote the interests of US citizens and companies. So it is the US's job to protect its citizens from foreign surveillance. I'd say it's Europe's job to protect its citizens from foreign surveillance. It's not "OK" so much as "Not my job."

toxik 6y ago
If only the European continent would form some kind of trade based union Edit: parent comment said something like "Europe is a continent"

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

jshmrsn 6y ago

At a basic level, I agree there’s not a fundamental difference. But I think it’s reasonable to look at practical differences between China and the US and consider which one you’d prefer to be secretly recording your personal data. The US has cultural and constitutional support of free speech, due process, and independent judiciary. On the flip-side, the US has PRISM, theocrats, an insane president, and a history of covert violent foreign intervention. China has little support for freedom of speech, separation of powers, etc.. And is frequently accused of extrajudicially disappearing people for their speech/beliefs. I think at present I’d still significantly prefer the US over China to secretly collect my personal data (even if I wasn’t a US citizen). It’s certainly possible that difference will further erode over time. I don’t necessarily mean to endorse banning Chinese apps, as that seems very problematic and arguably cuts against our own value system. It’s always seemed very protectionist when China did that to us, and it seems the same when we do it to them, and comes with the same surface area for corporate corruption of our government.

f6v 6y ago
But does this make a difference in practice? I’ve been to China only for short business trips, so I can’t judge. But when I looked at the city and talked to people in China and outside of it, I didn’t get an impression people are oppressed or suffering. I don’t claim I have the evidence, but it’s just that so many people here paint a grim picture and I’m afraid it’s only based on US propaganda.
- nostromo 6y ago
  Yes, it’s very different. Here’s a Chinese interrogation video of a “suspect” being interrogated for posting a comment mildly criticizing the local police on QQ: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiMLVYK4hEc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiMLVYK4hEc
  - f6v 6y ago
    How do you know it’s not staged?
- 6y ago

puppymaster 6y ago

Not that hard for me. Americans have criticized, sued and raised awareness about their government misconducts, with little repercussions. Joseph Gordon-Levitt didn't get persecuted for playing Snowden. Adam Driver didn't receive state sanctioned intimidation for playing Daniel J. Jones. Director, screenwriters, producers and etc get to live their life normally. Can you imagine what will happen to Fan Bing Bing if she plays Chai Ling (One of Tiananmen Square student leader)? So to answer your question - no it's not okay. But I would expect HN audience to be able to see the obvious distinctions.

echelon 6y ago
It's ironic that you mention Hollywood, because our studios are now catering to CCP sensibilities. You'll never see a film critical of China made domestically. Our studios want access to the Chinese market and they know that if they produce such a film, they'll be blacklisted. This is why we need top-down decoupling. China knows we're addicted, and they've got us in a good spot to continue growing off of our market.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- jimbob45 6y ago
  Isn’t it the case that only 10 or so US movies are allowed in China in any given year? I figure that we optimize our 10 movies for China and then leave the rest alone.
- hertzrat 6y ago
  It’s happening in gaming too. The most recent thing in memory was something Blizzard did, and apparently the word Taiwan is censored in all chats in PubG[1] [1] https://venturebeat.com/2018/11/15/chinese-censorship-affects-games-everywhere-and-its-getting-bigger/ https://venturebeat.com/2018/11/15/chinese-censorship-affect...
trasz 6y ago
McCarthy’s commission existed till... early seventies?

jonathanstrange 6y ago

It's not okay in any of these cases.

exabrial 6y ago

Your assumptions in your otherwise sound argument are flawed. Alipay is the Chinese government for all intents and purposes. 100% of your information for freely to the CCP for their purposes. We're not talking preferring one company over another, we're taking preferring a free market company over a state sponsored actor.

Veen 6y ago

It's not difficult to explain. The American government acts in the interests of Americans (or attempts to do so). European governments act in the interests of Europeans. The Chinese government likewise. Their rhetoric reflects those goals. What's the alternative: governments that act against the interests of their population in order to conform to notions of morality that only really apply to individuals? Governments exist to serve a specific population, not humanity as a whole.

jfengel 6y ago
In each case, you also have to consider the possibility that each government is acting in the best interest not of the governed, but of the individual or group doing the governing. Is this genuinely in the interest of America, or just in the interest of the person making the decision? That's a question you always have to ask, but it seems particularly pertinent in the case of a leader who has been issuing numerous baseless complaints about various opponents, whose actions have repeatedly been refused by courts, and who was denied a second term. So while it's true that the government doesn't need to act in the interests of anybody but its own citizens, it would be nice to know if this decision achieves even that much -- or if it's just spite.
- Veen 6y ago
  > In each case, you also have to consider the possibility that each government is acting in the best interest not of the governed, but of the individual or group doing the governin That's absolutely true, which is why we have courts, representative legislatures, and elections. Methods of mitigating the corruption of the governing class are built into the system. It doesn't work quickly or perfectly, but it's better than autocracy.

higerordermap 6y ago

Does US ban European apps? Does Republican Party / Democratic party inject a director into every big tech company? Then why should Europe ban US apps?

hnarn 6y ago

GDPR applies for American companies in the EU, so to answer your question, no, it’s not “OK”.

csomar 6y ago

It's true the US has been promoting "freedom" throughout the world, but at the end of the day they should only care about their own citizens or interests.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

tyfytyf 6y ago

Some opinions from UK[1]. Although they’re not part of Europe any more. But you got the idea. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-31/china-and-russia-must-not-be-post-covid-winners-u-k-envoy-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-31/china-and...

switch007 6y ago
We left the EU but we didn't drift out in to the middle of the Atlantic in the process :-)

partiallypro 6y ago

China just jailed a number of pro-Democratic leaders in Hong Kong, and have now shown they are willing to pursue people outside of their own borders that are a threat to the CCP. I'm sure they will be using meta data to justify their arrests. I don't see how any reasonable person can compare the two.

kube-system 6y ago

When American companies invade the privacy of European citizens, it's because Facebook is collecting marketing data to make a buck. The concerns the US has about these Chinese companies is not that these companies are collecting too much marketing data, but that the CCP has coopted them into doing espionage operations on their behalf. Note that the US didn't care about these Chinese companies back when they were only collecting marketing data. It has only been since Xi's recent consolidation of power and crackdown on the autonomy of big tech that these issues have been hot topics.