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Sure, everyone can have any opinion anywhere. Still it's mostly an opinion shaped by the environment and mostly prevalent in the US, and to lesser extent, othe

Sure, everyone can have any opinion anywhere. Still it's mostly an opinion shaped by the environment and mostly prevalent in the US, and to lesser extent, other sparsely populated countries with significant sprawl. The fact that the sprawl makes it ineffective and expensive to lay an effective public transit is what makes it seem undesirable. The fact that it's ineffective makes it relegated to what poor people use, deepening the issue. And this goes as just personal experience, but my US friends in the EU insist on driving through city traffic and spending 3-4 as much time in commuting, and it takes a while until they give up. Some of them aren't even used to do groceries by foot, for a large chunk of the US population that involves driving to a Walmart.

nec4b 6y ago
>> Sure, everyone can have any opinion anywhere. Still it's mostly an opinion shaped by the environment and mostly prevalent in the US, and to lesser extent, other sparsely populated countries with significant sprawl. Do you also think that introversion and extraversion are opinions shaped by the environment? Does really bother you so much if so many people intrinsically prefer a different lifestyle than what you believe it to be the best, that you are basically willing to call them brainwashed by the environment? >>Some of them aren't even used to do groceries by foot, for a large chunk of the US population that involves driving to a Walmart. It's the same everywhere across Europe outside of strict city centers, just replace Walmart with a local shopping center (Spar, Aldi, Leclerc,...). If you'll ever visit one, you're guaranteed to find them packed with people.
- Uberphallus 6y ago
  > Do you also think that introversion and extraversion are opinions shaped by the environment? I don't know how intro/extroversion might be shaped or not by the environment, never gave that a thought. > Does really bother you so much if so many people intrinsically prefer a different lifestyle than what you believe it to be the best, that you are basically willing to call them brainwashed by the environment? I don't get bothered by the comment, but rather by the implications. I just describe it: car over anything else, as an opinion, is largely a side effect of cheap-gas + city-sprawl approach to development, which is the archetype of urban unsustainability [0]. It's no surprise that the US leads (along with Australia, guilty of the same sin) per capita fossil fuel consumption, close to an order of magnitude higher than the European average, and doubling Germany, the industrial powerhouse of the continent. People in the US are car centric not unlike in North Korea they're Juche-centric: it's often (or always) the only option. > It's the same everywhere across Europe outside of strict city centers, just replace Walmart with a local shopping center (Spar, Aldi, Leclerc,...). If you'll ever visit one, you're guaranteed to find them packed with people. Maybe we've lived in different parts of Europe? There's like 2-4 levels of proximity in all major conglomerates (e.g. Carrefour > Carrefour Market > Carrefour Express, Monoprix > Monop', etc). Even though the smaller the more expensive, they're invariably cheaper than even just starting the car, and a no-brainer if you value your time at minimum wage. Spar is largely just proximity shopping so I doubt you'll see it crowded, Aldi is hard discount so they tend to just build big where it's cheap (causing the problems you describe), and Leclerc has no proximity to my knowledge but has more central and bigger locations than Aldi. Check locations of AhorraMás/DIA in Spain, Carrefour in France, or Фора and Сильпо in Ukraine (or at least Kyiv), to name a few I'm familiar with. Every neighborhood has them, even residential ones, and you only need to go to a mall or a big hypermarket in exceptional cases. The closest thing I can compare Walmart to, in Europe, is Auchan, with roughly the same ratio of supercenters/hypermarkets to neighborhood stores (3:1). Interestingly, Auchan is losing money because as Europe becomes denser, people shop less and less at hypermarkets. [0] https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/the-characteristics-causes-and-consequences-of-sprawling-103014747/ https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/the-charac...
  - nec4b 6y ago
    Thanks for a thoughtful reply. >>I don't know how intro/extroversion might be shaped or not by the environment, never gave that a thought. I asked you that because I assumed that you would not try to force introverts to be more outgoing even though outgoing people are supposed to be happier. >>People in the US are car centric not unlike in North Korea they're Juche-centric: it's often (or always) the only option. The comparison is rather bad but yes I agree the USA as a whole is pretty car centric. I just don't see anything bad about it. It is like that for historical reasons (USA is pretty big place compared to Germany you mentioned, lots of space, lots of wealth) and personal reasons (people like to live like that). I think the USA actually for its size has very good transit options. Ships and trains for cargo, cars for small to medium distances and planes for medium to large distances. Europe is also pretty car centric, the roads all always full inside and outside of the cities and Europeans love their cars as much as Americans do. There are a lot of car manufacturers in Europe. >> Maybe we've lived in different parts of Europe? There's like 2-4 levels of proximity in all major conglomerates (e.g. Carrefour > Carrefour Market > Carrefour Express, Monoprix > Monop', etc). Even though the smaller the more expensive, they're invariably cheaper than even just starting the car, and a no-brainer if you value your time at minimum wage. I know Germany, Austria, Italy and some other smaller countries in the Balkans. In my experience people rather take a car to the shopping mall weekly, bi-weekly or monthly to make a big purchase (cheaper, more choice) than to go to small inner city shops for that. The smaller markets are used for buying things you ran out and urgently need or to buy launch or snacks on your way to work.

nec4b 6y ago

>> Sure, everyone can have any opinion anywhere. Still it's mostly an opinion shaped by the environment and mostly prevalent in the US, and to lesser extent, other sparsely populated countries with significant sprawl. Do you also think that introversion and extraversion are opinions shaped by the environment? Does really bother you so much if so many people intrinsically prefer a different lifestyle than what you believe it to be the best, that you are basically willing to call them brainwashed by the environment? >>Some of them aren't even used to do groceries by foot, for a large chunk of the US population that involves driving to a Walmart. It's the same everywhere across Europe outside of strict city centers, just replace Walmart with a local shopping center (Spar, Aldi, Leclerc,...). If you'll ever visit one, you're guaranteed to find them packed with people.

Uberphallus 6y ago
> Do you also think that introversion and extraversion are opinions shaped by the environment? I don't know how intro/extroversion might be shaped or not by the environment, never gave that a thought. > Does really bother you so much if so many people intrinsically prefer a different lifestyle than what you believe it to be the best, that you are basically willing to call them brainwashed by the environment? I don't get bothered by the comment, but rather by the implications. I just describe it: car over anything else, as an opinion, is largely a side effect of cheap-gas + city-sprawl approach to development, which is the archetype of urban unsustainability [0]. It's no surprise that the US leads (along with Australia, guilty of the same sin) per capita fossil fuel consumption, close to an order of magnitude higher than the European average, and doubling Germany, the industrial powerhouse of the continent. People in the US are car centric not unlike in North Korea they're Juche-centric: it's often (or always) the only option. > It's the same everywhere across Europe outside of strict city centers, just replace Walmart with a local shopping center (Spar, Aldi, Leclerc,...). If you'll ever visit one, you're guaranteed to find them packed with people. Maybe we've lived in different parts of Europe? There's like 2-4 levels of proximity in all major conglomerates (e.g. Carrefour > Carrefour Market > Carrefour Express, Monoprix > Monop', etc). Even though the smaller the more expensive, they're invariably cheaper than even just starting the car, and a no-brainer if you value your time at minimum wage. Spar is largely just proximity shopping so I doubt you'll see it crowded, Aldi is hard discount so they tend to just build big where it's cheap (causing the problems you describe), and Leclerc has no proximity to my knowledge but has more central and bigger locations than Aldi. Check locations of AhorraMás/DIA in Spain, Carrefour in France, or Фора and Сильпо in Ukraine (or at least Kyiv), to name a few I'm familiar with. Every neighborhood has them, even residential ones, and you only need to go to a mall or a big hypermarket in exceptional cases. The closest thing I can compare Walmart to, in Europe, is Auchan, with roughly the same ratio of supercenters/hypermarkets to neighborhood stores (3:1). Interestingly, Auchan is losing money because as Europe becomes denser, people shop less and less at hypermarkets. [0] https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/the-characteristics-causes-and-consequences-of-sprawling-103014747/ https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/the-charac...
- nec4b 6y ago
  Thanks for a thoughtful reply. >>I don't know how intro/extroversion might be shaped or not by the environment, never gave that a thought. I asked you that because I assumed that you would not try to force introverts to be more outgoing even though outgoing people are supposed to be happier. >>People in the US are car centric not unlike in North Korea they're Juche-centric: it's often (or always) the only option. The comparison is rather bad but yes I agree the USA as a whole is pretty car centric. I just don't see anything bad about it. It is like that for historical reasons (USA is pretty big place compared to Germany you mentioned, lots of space, lots of wealth) and personal reasons (people like to live like that). I think the USA actually for its size has very good transit options. Ships and trains for cargo, cars for small to medium distances and planes for medium to large distances. Europe is also pretty car centric, the roads all always full inside and outside of the cities and Europeans love their cars as much as Americans do. There are a lot of car manufacturers in Europe. >> Maybe we've lived in different parts of Europe? There's like 2-4 levels of proximity in all major conglomerates (e.g. Carrefour > Carrefour Market > Carrefour Express, Monoprix > Monop', etc). Even though the smaller the more expensive, they're invariably cheaper than even just starting the car, and a no-brainer if you value your time at minimum wage. I know Germany, Austria, Italy and some other smaller countries in the Balkans. In my experience people rather take a car to the shopping mall weekly, bi-weekly or monthly to make a big purchase (cheaper, more choice) than to go to small inner city shops for that. The smaller markets are used for buying things you ran out and urgently need or to buy launch or snacks on your way to work.