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Try applying the problem to other issues to see the impact: * An advertiser wants to place ads on sites / tv networks that have an audience that is more likely

Try applying the problem to other issues to see the impact: * An advertiser wants to place ads on sites / tv networks that have an audience that is more likely to buy their product upon seeing their ads. If they don't want to violate privacy, they run a survey. What if the response rate among a historical disenfranchised group (e.g. African Americans) is terrible? The modern "data driven" marketer would see little reason to advertise on Black media properties. This isn't a fictious example - it's a current problem in the media planning / agency industry. * A local government has to decide between investing in more ESL resources in public education vs. other competing budget needs. They look at census / community survey data (which some Hispanic and immigrant populations are fearful of responding to d/t politicization) and decide to prioritize other asks due to undercounted demand. The data could also be skewed in other ways that warp their decision, like allocating budget to school zones that only represent specific immigrant communities that haven't historically been disenfranchised. The big picture issue here is governments/businesses making decisions with bias information leading to incorrect conclusions, and the only know recourse currently is to scrap privacy.

TeMPOraL 6y ago
Look at it from the point of view of regular folks: * An advertiser - a malicious being intent on tricking me out of my money - wants to make a survey to determine how to make it easier to trick people into parting with their money. Why would I help someone make my life, and life of other people like me, worse? The answer to that is to beat advertising down until it isn't so blatantly customer-hostile. Then people may be more willing to help. * I'm in a politically precarious situation and the government is asking questions - ostensibly for purposes that could benefit me, but if my honest answers were seen by a different government agency, it would cause me a world of hurt. I hide away. Or lie. The answer to that is ideally to fix the politically precarious situation of a subset of your population - but at the very least, to foster the trust in information separation between government agencies, so that I can e.g. afford to be honest with the census bureau without worrying about the IRS or the police. That level of trust is not the default.
- indymike 6y ago
  You've really summed up the state of the world right now: we're in a crisis of trust. We don't trust each other, we don't trust institutions and the result is anxiety, fear and anger.
  - ryukafalz 6y ago
    I broadly agree, but I would frame it a bit differently: we have a severe lack of trustworthiness in our modern world; or, at least, the trustworthy voices are lost in the noise. This is a big big part of why I primarily use FOSS as much as possible. Generally speaking, FOSS developers and distributors seem to act with the user's interests in mind more often than proprietary software vendors. (Certainly the distributions do, probably out of necessity - there's no shortage of competitive distro options, so a distro being shady is practically a death sentence. Individual developers still deserve more scrutiny.) The advertisers certainly do not have my best interests in mind.
    - danShumway 6y ago
      Agreed. The issue isn't that people don't blindly trust advertisers and VC-backed companies enough. The issue is that those entities are not trustworthy. People who are choosing not to share data with those companies in their current form are making a smart choice.
    - TeMPOraL 6y ago
      I think you may be underestimating the problem with your framing. The real trouble is outside of software. If you think about it, how come otherwise reasonable people become anti-vaxxers, or flat-earthers, or believers of any kind of (perhaps less obvious) nonsense? The arguments I've seen tend to boil down to lack of trust. They don't trust healthcare institutions ("it's all bought out by big pharma!"), scientists ("all bought out by big $something!"), government agencies ("they're incompetent"/"literally nazis"), etc. To some degree, these institutions all violated our trust in one way or another, and media (both mainstream and social) is doing stellar job at amplifying the damage. To me, the problem with the people mistrusting institutions to the extreme isn't the facts - they often have good, if cherry-picked ones. It's the relative weight given to those facts (like, just because there was a screwup with the swine flu vaccine doesn't mean flu vaccines in general are evil dangerous pharma moneymakers). Fixing that requires teaching people some rational thinking, and I'm not sure how to do that; it's much more difficult than just throwing citations at them.
danShumway 6y ago
> and the only known recourse currently is to scrap privacy. I agree that low response rates are a problem, but people should still have the choice whether or not to give this information. To me, when I see that voluntary participation in these studies is so low, that's not a problem with privacy, that's a problem with the institutions doing the collection. A good example of that is political surveys, which are really hard because people don't answer their phones. But why don't people answer their phones? Because they're swamped with scams, political ads, and other spam. Half of the time that someone says they're conducting a political survey on a phone call, what they're really doing is campaigning for a candidate. The problem isn't that people are allowed to decline phone calls, the problem is that most of the phone calls people get are unwanted crap -- so it really doesn't make sense for them to answer the phone, they're making the correct choice by letting unrecognized numbers go to voicemail. As a further analogy, if 50% of mail in the US postal service was infested with live spiders, you might see delivery rates for paper bills and official notices plummet. That would be a problem. But the solution wouldn't be to force people to open their mail anyway, it would be to stop putting spiders in people's Amazon boxes. And as it is with spiders, so too it is with advertisers. You want to improve voluntary participation rates? Focus on removing bad actors and making people feel safe about their data. Governments, telemarketers, political groups, advertisers, and just companies in general all have serious issues with self-policing how they use and collect data. That's not anyone else's fault or problem to solve.
- Nextgrid 6y ago
  > A good example of that is political surveys, which are really hard because people don't answer their phones. But why don't people answer their phones? Because they're swamped with scams, political ads, and other spam. But why should people answer political surveys? It's a waste of time similar to the other nuisance calls you mentioned. Even if we assume all the other nuisance calls are eliminated, there's still no reason anyone should answer a political survey. It's a waste of their time and there is no way to ensure how this data will be used.
  - danShumway 6y ago
    It would make elections a bit less stressful. There are a lot of vested interests in both political campaigns and in the public at large that want accurate polling before elections. That's extremely difficult to do right now. I know some people debate whether having that information is healthy, which I won't comment on, but I do understand why someone might want it. Now, at an individual level, what do I personally get out of answering any specific survey -- that's a much tougher question for me to answer.

TeMPOraL 6y ago

Look at it from the point of view of regular folks: * An advertiser - a malicious being intent on tricking me out of my money - wants to make a survey to determine how to make it easier to trick people into parting with their money. Why would I help someone make my life, and life of other people like me, worse? The answer to that is to beat advertising down until it isn't so blatantly customer-hostile. Then people may be more willing to help. * I'm in a politically precarious situation and the government is asking questions - ostensibly for purposes that could benefit me, but if my honest answers were seen by a different government agency, it would cause me a world of hurt. I hide away. Or lie. The answer to that is ideally to fix the politically precarious situation of a subset of your population - but at the very least, to foster the trust in information separation between government agencies, so that I can e.g. afford to be honest with the census bureau without worrying about the IRS or the police. That level of trust is not the default.

indymike 6y ago
You've really summed up the state of the world right now: we're in a crisis of trust. We don't trust each other, we don't trust institutions and the result is anxiety, fear and anger.
- ryukafalz 6y ago
  I broadly agree, but I would frame it a bit differently: we have a severe lack of trustworthiness in our modern world; or, at least, the trustworthy voices are lost in the noise. This is a big big part of why I primarily use FOSS as much as possible. Generally speaking, FOSS developers and distributors seem to act with the user's interests in mind more often than proprietary software vendors. (Certainly the distributions do, probably out of necessity - there's no shortage of competitive distro options, so a distro being shady is practically a death sentence. Individual developers still deserve more scrutiny.) The advertisers certainly do not have my best interests in mind.
  - danShumway 6y ago
    Agreed. The issue isn't that people don't blindly trust advertisers and VC-backed companies enough. The issue is that those entities are not trustworthy. People who are choosing not to share data with those companies in their current form are making a smart choice.
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    I think you may be underestimating the problem with your framing. The real trouble is outside of software. If you think about it, how come otherwise reasonable people become anti-vaxxers, or flat-earthers, or believers of any kind of (perhaps less obvious) nonsense? The arguments I've seen tend to boil down to lack of trust. They don't trust healthcare institutions ("it's all bought out by big pharma!"), scientists ("all bought out by big $something!"), government agencies ("they're incompetent"/"literally nazis"), etc. To some degree, these institutions all violated our trust in one way or another, and media (both mainstream and social) is doing stellar job at amplifying the damage. To me, the problem with the people mistrusting institutions to the extreme isn't the facts - they often have good, if cherry-picked ones. It's the relative weight given to those facts (like, just because there was a screwup with the swine flu vaccine doesn't mean flu vaccines in general are evil dangerous pharma moneymakers). Fixing that requires teaching people some rational thinking, and I'm not sure how to do that; it's much more difficult than just throwing citations at them.

danShumway 6y ago

> and the only known recourse currently is to scrap privacy. I agree that low response rates are a problem, but people should still have the choice whether or not to give this information. To me, when I see that voluntary participation in these studies is so low, that's not a problem with privacy, that's a problem with the institutions doing the collection. A good example of that is political surveys, which are really hard because people don't answer their phones. But why don't people answer their phones? Because they're swamped with scams, political ads, and other spam. Half of the time that someone says they're conducting a political survey on a phone call, what they're really doing is campaigning for a candidate. The problem isn't that people are allowed to decline phone calls, the problem is that most of the phone calls people get are unwanted crap -- so it really doesn't make sense for them to answer the phone, they're making the correct choice by letting unrecognized numbers go to voicemail. As a further analogy, if 50% of mail in the US postal service was infested with live spiders, you might see delivery rates for paper bills and official notices plummet. That would be a problem. But the solution wouldn't be to force people to open their mail anyway, it would be to stop putting spiders in people's Amazon boxes. And as it is with spiders, so too it is with advertisers. You want to improve voluntary participation rates? Focus on removing bad actors and making people feel safe about their data. Governments, telemarketers, political groups, advertisers, and just companies in general all have serious issues with self-policing how they use and collect data. That's not anyone else's fault or problem to solve.

Nextgrid 6y ago
> A good example of that is political surveys, which are really hard because people don't answer their phones. But why don't people answer their phones? Because they're swamped with scams, political ads, and other spam. But why should people answer political surveys? It's a waste of time similar to the other nuisance calls you mentioned. Even if we assume all the other nuisance calls are eliminated, there's still no reason anyone should answer a political survey. It's a waste of their time and there is no way to ensure how this data will be used.
- danShumway 6y ago
  It would make elections a bit less stressful. There are a lot of vested interests in both political campaigns and in the public at large that want accurate polling before elections. That's extremely difficult to do right now. I know some people debate whether having that information is healthy, which I won't comment on, but I do understand why someone might want it. Now, at an individual level, what do I personally get out of answering any specific survey -- that's a much tougher question for me to answer.