3 ms·

>we would immediately rule out things like stock shorting, put and call options, margin and leverage trading, mortgages, interest bearing loans, selling debt fo

>we would immediately rule out things like stock shorting, put and call options, margin and leverage trading, mortgages, interest bearing loans, selling debt for debt, and so on. These are the very foundations on which modern society is built and which drives the entire humanity forward. Sure, some people have managed to race ahead but on a whole we, as humans, have progressed from clubbing each other for food to arguing anonymously over the internet thanks to all these

apta_ 6y ago
With all due respect, this is a very fallacious argument. Just because it is widespread today does not make it acceptable or good in any way or form. It does not mean that it is the cause for our advancement (association fallacy, and correlation vs. causation fallacy). As a matter of fact, I would wager that these practices are a main driving force of the wage gap we see today, causing instability and unrest, inflation, and tons of other problems. We have better solutions, it's just that no politician I've seen so far is going to dare admit that the modern foundations are corrupt. Very powerful people are not going to be happy (note that I'm not arguing for socialism or communism either, they are destructive in their own ways).
sifar 6y ago
That is a sweeping (and incorrect) generalization. Except the credit part, all the other things are optional. And even for credit, I am not sure interest is needed. That leads to the world devouring growth that we have. Just because we inherited a world where these things exist, the tendency to attribute them all to these things is not wise. I don't know what to call this fallacy.
- apta_ 6y ago
  > And even for credit, I am not sure interest is needed. That leads to the world devouring growth that we have. Exactly. It's not needed. It causes a growth at all cost situation we see today (and one cost is debt slavery for a large portion of the population, increasing the wealth gap).
srean 6y ago
Could you point me to some reading material that establishes that all those were necessary for the forward movement of humanity. Its not a snark, I would be genuinely interested in learning about this point of view. I have no trouble accepting that these things co-occurred with the movement. I don't have a good reason/foundation to argue that they were necessary, or even beneficial, apart from artifacts that smoothen and/or amortize risks, insurance, for example.

apta_ 6y ago

With all due respect, this is a very fallacious argument. Just because it is widespread today does not make it acceptable or good in any way or form. It does not mean that it is the cause for our advancement (association fallacy, and correlation vs. causation fallacy). As a matter of fact, I would wager that these practices are a main driving force of the wage gap we see today, causing instability and unrest, inflation, and tons of other problems. We have better solutions, it's just that no politician I've seen so far is going to dare admit that the modern foundations are corrupt. Very powerful people are not going to be happy (note that I'm not arguing for socialism or communism either, they are destructive in their own ways).

sifar 6y ago

That is a sweeping (and incorrect) generalization. Except the credit part, all the other things are optional. And even for credit, I am not sure interest is needed. That leads to the world devouring growth that we have. Just because we inherited a world where these things exist, the tendency to attribute them all to these things is not wise. I don't know what to call this fallacy.

apta_ 6y ago
> And even for credit, I am not sure interest is needed. That leads to the world devouring growth that we have. Exactly. It's not needed. It causes a growth at all cost situation we see today (and one cost is debt slavery for a large portion of the population, increasing the wealth gap).

srean 6y ago

Could you point me to some reading material that establishes that all those were necessary for the forward movement of humanity. Its not a snark, I would be genuinely interested in learning about this point of view. I have no trouble accepting that these things co-occurred with the movement. I don't have a good reason/foundation to argue that they were necessary, or even beneficial, apart from artifacts that smoothen and/or amortize risks, insurance, for example.