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I agree completely. I don’t understand the recent trend to believe that we need to get kids into software engineering as soon as they pop out of the birth canal

I agree completely. I don’t understand the recent trend to believe that we need to get kids into software engineering as soon as they pop out of the birth canal. My friend is an accountant. If he asked me for advice on how to make spreadsheets more fun for his kid I’d think he had something against his kid. In the words of Pink Floyd “Hey! Nerds! Leave them kids alone!”

lmilcin 6y ago
> I don’t understand the recent trend You are mistaken about that "recent" part. Parents have always wanted their kids to go to best schools and learn for well paying, prestige jobs. It's just that what is well paying has changed. Why wouldn't I want my kids to be interested in something that will get them good start in life, that could be groundwork for their future careers ASSUMING it is fun for them and they are doing this out of their own volition? That would teach them you can have fun doing science or technology rather than treating is as a necessary evil?
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Parents have always wanted their kids to go to best schools Parents haven't even always wanted their kids to go to school.
  - majewsky 6y ago
    > Parents haven't even always been able to send their kids to school. FTFY
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  No worries, you seem to be doing fine. I would justs try, not to put too much pressure on him (or you) to make progress with your project, when he wants to do other things. And in fact, don't forget to motivate him to do other things, like play outside with friends in the actual dirt. Or with you. That is very important for his motoric, social and immune skills, too. In general, just being a kid. With not too much responsibilities and just being able to play freely. 1.5 h of serious work and learning every day do sound a bit much, if that means, it is cut from the outside time with you. You can also combine being outside with the project, by having pen and paper around to discuss and write things that come to mind ... Oh - and of course: have you considered Lego Mindstorms? I had great success with it, teaching nephews the basic of robotics. With something they can touch. And the ability to work with their hands and minds, as this involves also designing of the chassis and the arragnement of sensors, etc. In general, LEGO is very accessible. So I would start with that, before turning into a more serious base of actual robots.
  - lmilcin 6y ago
    > Oh - and of course: have you considered Lego Mindstorms? Got 51515 from Santa:)
    - hutzlibu 6y ago
      Oh, there is a new generation out, it seems, looks good. I used the very first version of Mindstorms .. have fun with it :)
- dave_sid 6y ago
  No offence to you. If your kids show a genuine interest then fostering that interest makes sense of course. It could be programming or it could be tennis, if they show an interest then go for it. I guess I’m just sick of seeing so much marketing around ‘code-for-kids’ classes and products and all that faff.
sharker8 6y ago
Actually making accounting fun for kids is also a good idea and should be encouraged.
- dave_sid 6y ago
  Well you could say that about any vocation.
  - ARandomerDude 6y ago
    Maybe. But accounting, or at least grasping personal finance, is a practical gift in a way that many others aren't at an introductory level. For example if you only want to be a manager at McDonald's you have to learn the most basic of accounting tasks.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      “Accounting” and “personal finance” and “spreadsheets” are three very different things that seem to have been used as if they were interchangeable in the subthread beginning with dave_sid’s hypothetical about an accountant asking about making spreadsheets more fun for kids.
      - TeMPOraL 6y ago
        They're very related, though. Kind of like "cooking", "personal nutrition" and "kitchen utensils".
    - fiddlerwoaroof 6y ago
      Honestly, a small amount of programming knowledge would make a lot of jobs better
  - eitland 6y ago
    Agree: I followed my Dad around the farm for hours when I was a kid. And yesterday I completed the first part of my prototype "gaming couch" and made sure those of my kids who cared could see how I did it.
sharadov 6y ago
Yeah bullshit programming classes https://www.whitehatjr.com/ https://www.whitehatjr.com/, where they promise that your kid will become the next Gates/Zuck. Have your kids go outside, let them indulge in free play, explore. We're destroying a generation with this nonsense
- dave_sid 6y ago
  Agree. Although “destroying” is maybe a little strong a word. I’d say we’re more just irritating them.
gfaure 6y ago
To be fair, software engineering connects better to the interests of STEM-ish kids (video games, robotics, electronics) than spreadsheets ever could.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  Having been a STEMish kid that only got into spreadsheets later than programming because my families first computers all came with BASIC but it wasn't until the third that I also had Visicalc, I'm not sure that spreadsheets really have that much less appeal than programming, presented in the right context. Even moreso with modern spreadsheets, where the barrier between spreadsheets and accessible programming tools is low, so using programming with spreadsheets is doable.
- detaro 6y ago
  "video games, robotics, electronics" is a rather tech-sided perspective of "STEM". Spreadsheets are great for maths, planning projects, tracking experiments/collecting data, ... which I'd also all attribute to things "STEM-ish kids" might do.
- JCharante 6y ago
  Really? My earliest memories of Excel are from third grade and long before I started programming. Calculations for electronics and min-maxing video games are perfect applications of spreadsheets. Spreadsheets are a great visual way of programming up to a certain point.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  Depends on video game and the parts of spreadsheets. For an extreme example, Eve Online is a game that makes kids do feats in spreadsheets that set them up straight for careers in accounting and supply chain management. But less extreme: if your game exposes numbers, spreadsheets are useful to play with them. If I knew more about Excel when I was 13, I'd probably retype unit stats from StarCraft into it and do the maths that I ended up doing in my head. Spreadsheets have plotting functions, which are a fun thing to play with. Also tracking my own magazines & CDs is something I remember doing as a kid - entirely doable in Excel, though in my case, this was my first exposure to Access and RDBMSes in general. Also worth noting that a proper spreadsheet like Excel is in itself a functional reactive programming REPL. FRP is what you do when you play with formulas.
jonfromsf 6y ago
My kids LOVE making spreadsheets. They use it to track points in various competitions and games and stuff like that. The script is actually a good entry point into programming too (simple stuff like SUM and AVERAGE, and constants like $A$1 or whatever).
- diarrhea 6y ago
  While there's good things for a kid to learn from spreadsheets, it might also do harm because it's so dissimilar to "the real thing". It's like when students learn MatLab. While much closer to regular software engineering than spreadsheets, it is still different enough for all the wrong basic concepts to sneak in and manifest. Switching to a classic programming language afterwards might actually be harder that way (not only learn all the new stuff, but unlearn/unlink the old stuff).
- pradn 6y ago
  I also loved making spreadsheets as a kid. I remember I'd get books about dinosaurs and add information about them to a sheet - latin name, size, height, etc. IIRC my dad accidentally deleted the file at some point, or it got lost somehow.
rorykoehler 6y ago
We do it with maths and languages. Why not programming? It is just another tool exactly like math and language.
- dorkwood 6y ago
  Do many people grow up with a love of math due to this common practice, though? I would have thought the opposite.
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    That's more of a problem with the school system, which force-feeds maths (and other subjects, most of them hated just as much) into kids at a pre-set pace, with no regard for quality or making it interesting for the children. Which is why I'm also worried that including coding in the basic school curriculum is only going to make people grow to hate it.
    - rorykoehler 6y ago
      That's a problem with schooling not subjects. Industrial revolution school systems don't fit the 21st century

lmilcin 6y ago

> I don’t understand the recent trend You are mistaken about that "recent" part. Parents have always wanted their kids to go to best schools and learn for well paying, prestige jobs. It's just that what is well paying has changed. Why wouldn't I want my kids to be interested in something that will get them good start in life, that could be groundwork for their future careers ASSUMING it is fun for them and they are doing this out of their own volition? That would teach them you can have fun doing science or technology rather than treating is as a necessary evil?

dragonwriter 6y ago
> Parents have always wanted their kids to go to best schools Parents haven't even always wanted their kids to go to school.
- majewsky 6y ago
  > Parents haven't even always been able to send their kids to school. FTFY
hutzlibu 6y ago
No worries, you seem to be doing fine. I would justs try, not to put too much pressure on him (or you) to make progress with your project, when he wants to do other things. And in fact, don't forget to motivate him to do other things, like play outside with friends in the actual dirt. Or with you. That is very important for his motoric, social and immune skills, too. In general, just being a kid. With not too much responsibilities and just being able to play freely. 1.5 h of serious work and learning every day do sound a bit much, if that means, it is cut from the outside time with you. You can also combine being outside with the project, by having pen and paper around to discuss and write things that come to mind ... Oh - and of course: have you considered Lego Mindstorms? I had great success with it, teaching nephews the basic of robotics. With something they can touch. And the ability to work with their hands and minds, as this involves also designing of the chassis and the arragnement of sensors, etc. In general, LEGO is very accessible. So I would start with that, before turning into a more serious base of actual robots.
- lmilcin 6y ago
  > Oh - and of course: have you considered Lego Mindstorms? Got 51515 from Santa:)
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    Oh, there is a new generation out, it seems, looks good. I used the very first version of Mindstorms .. have fun with it :)
dave_sid 6y ago
No offence to you. If your kids show a genuine interest then fostering that interest makes sense of course. It could be programming or it could be tennis, if they show an interest then go for it. I guess I’m just sick of seeing so much marketing around ‘code-for-kids’ classes and products and all that faff.

sharker8 6y ago

Actually making accounting fun for kids is also a good idea and should be encouraged.

dave_sid 6y ago
Well you could say that about any vocation.
- ARandomerDude 6y ago
  Maybe. But accounting, or at least grasping personal finance, is a practical gift in a way that many others aren't at an introductory level. For example if you only want to be a manager at McDonald's you have to learn the most basic of accounting tasks.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    “Accounting” and “personal finance” and “spreadsheets” are three very different things that seem to have been used as if they were interchangeable in the subthread beginning with dave_sid’s hypothetical about an accountant asking about making spreadsheets more fun for kids.
    - TeMPOraL 6y ago
      They're very related, though. Kind of like "cooking", "personal nutrition" and "kitchen utensils".
  - fiddlerwoaroof 6y ago
    Honestly, a small amount of programming knowledge would make a lot of jobs better
- eitland 6y ago
  Agree: I followed my Dad around the farm for hours when I was a kid. And yesterday I completed the first part of my prototype "gaming couch" and made sure those of my kids who cared could see how I did it.

sharadov 6y ago

Yeah bullshit programming classes https://www.whitehatjr.com/ https://www.whitehatjr.com/, where they promise that your kid will become the next Gates/Zuck. Have your kids go outside, let them indulge in free play, explore. We're destroying a generation with this nonsense

dave_sid 6y ago
Agree. Although “destroying” is maybe a little strong a word. I’d say we’re more just irritating them.

gfaure 6y ago

To be fair, software engineering connects better to the interests of STEM-ish kids (video games, robotics, electronics) than spreadsheets ever could.

dragonwriter 6y ago
Having been a STEMish kid that only got into spreadsheets later than programming because my families first computers all came with BASIC but it wasn't until the third that I also had Visicalc, I'm not sure that spreadsheets really have that much less appeal than programming, presented in the right context. Even moreso with modern spreadsheets, where the barrier between spreadsheets and accessible programming tools is low, so using programming with spreadsheets is doable.
detaro 6y ago
"video games, robotics, electronics" is a rather tech-sided perspective of "STEM". Spreadsheets are great for maths, planning projects, tracking experiments/collecting data, ... which I'd also all attribute to things "STEM-ish kids" might do.
JCharante 6y ago
Really? My earliest memories of Excel are from third grade and long before I started programming. Calculations for electronics and min-maxing video games are perfect applications of spreadsheets. Spreadsheets are a great visual way of programming up to a certain point.
TeMPOraL 6y ago
Depends on video game and the parts of spreadsheets. For an extreme example, Eve Online is a game that makes kids do feats in spreadsheets that set them up straight for careers in accounting and supply chain management. But less extreme: if your game exposes numbers, spreadsheets are useful to play with them. If I knew more about Excel when I was 13, I'd probably retype unit stats from StarCraft into it and do the maths that I ended up doing in my head. Spreadsheets have plotting functions, which are a fun thing to play with. Also tracking my own magazines & CDs is something I remember doing as a kid - entirely doable in Excel, though in my case, this was my first exposure to Access and RDBMSes in general. Also worth noting that a proper spreadsheet like Excel is in itself a functional reactive programming REPL. FRP is what you do when you play with formulas.

jonfromsf 6y ago

My kids LOVE making spreadsheets. They use it to track points in various competitions and games and stuff like that. The script is actually a good entry point into programming too (simple stuff like SUM and AVERAGE, and constants like $A$1 or whatever).

diarrhea 6y ago
While there's good things for a kid to learn from spreadsheets, it might also do harm because it's so dissimilar to "the real thing". It's like when students learn MatLab. While much closer to regular software engineering than spreadsheets, it is still different enough for all the wrong basic concepts to sneak in and manifest. Switching to a classic programming language afterwards might actually be harder that way (not only learn all the new stuff, but unlearn/unlink the old stuff).
pradn 6y ago
I also loved making spreadsheets as a kid. I remember I'd get books about dinosaurs and add information about them to a sheet - latin name, size, height, etc. IIRC my dad accidentally deleted the file at some point, or it got lost somehow.

rorykoehler 6y ago

We do it with maths and languages. Why not programming? It is just another tool exactly like math and language.

dorkwood 6y ago
Do many people grow up with a love of math due to this common practice, though? I would have thought the opposite.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  That's more of a problem with the school system, which force-feeds maths (and other subjects, most of them hated just as much) into kids at a pre-set pace, with no regard for quality or making it interesting for the children. Which is why I'm also worried that including coding in the basic school curriculum is only going to make people grow to hate it.
  - rorykoehler 6y ago
    That's a problem with schooling not subjects. Industrial revolution school systems don't fit the 21st century