6 ms·

I have read every single thing Wolfe wrote (even the limited-edition chapbooks), and I feel I should warn potential readers: he only had about a decade-long run

I have read every single thing Wolfe wrote (even the limited-edition chapbooks), and I feel I should warn potential readers: he only had about a decade-long run as a writer of high art in the 1970s. I strongly recommend the early Wolfe, but the later Wolfe is a lesser author. In that decade, Wolfe produced three large works (The Fifth Head of Cerberus, Peace and The Book of the New Sun) and a number of short stories where the prose was incredibly rich and beautiful, fully the equal of Proust or Nabokov. His reputation should rest on these. But from the early 1980s, his prose became drab, lackluster. He still could impress readers with his plots that invariably featured unreliable narrators and ellipsis, but even this was gradually taken to the point of absurdity. By the turn of the millennium, he felt like a one-trick pony. His editors at Tor apparently accepted every manuscript he submitted, but the late flood of weak novels IMHO diluted his stature.

ilamont 6y ago
I agree. It was much harder to get into his later work, including "Long Sun."
Finnucane 6y ago
The thing that changed for Gene was that he no longer had a day job. When he was working, he'd get up at 5 am to writer for two hours before leaving for work. The whole of the Book of the New Sun was written that way. Which meant there was a certain commercial pressure to sell books, and I think his consistency flagged. I worked at Tor in the mid-to-late 1990s. I don't think that Hartwell just accepted anything he sent, the process was a little more complicated than that, because David knew what he was working on. Gene had a tendency to resist editing; once he was done with a thing it was done. I think he had some good books in that period, but there wasn't going to be another Peace or Fifth Head of Cerebus.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- m463 6y ago
  that's interesting. I wonder if the stimulus of a day at work with people and interactions and pressure and more could make something more meaningful come out. Sort of like a little external entropy added to the random number generator.
  - kinghtown 6y ago
    I think there is some truth to this but I wouldn’t argue to keep a day job as a writer. The vast majority of recording artists are never able to match the music they recorded in their 20’s. I’ve commented on that before here so I won’t get into it further than to say that the world isn’t interested in middle aged musicians which in turn affects the work. I think someone like Thomas Pynchon shows that an author can very well be producing very good work well into the old age. There are rumours about him being both a professor or exCIA but I’m sure he’s been reasonably well off since the late 70s. While I haven’t read Bleeding Edge, his most recent novel, Inherent Vice is wild and excellent. Maybe keeping a job keeps a writer honest or at least in the public watching and note taking. But I don’t think this is always true and it would be heartbreaking to take the dream away from everyone about ever becoming a full-time novelist. I also don’t think making great art is easy. A few family deaths and accumulated illnesses and bad experience can really do a number on people. Not to suggest that this is Wolfe but there are many factors at play.
    - SamoyedFurFluff 6y ago
      Interestingly I think novelists can get better with age, see Ursula le guin or octavia butler. Or even now, jeff vandermeer and nalo hopkinson and nisi shawl.
    - watwut 6y ago
      I dont know about music (my favorite stuff is in older aga range frequently, but I don't know how much anecdotal it is). But, writers commonly get better with age. You see that if you read their later books and then go back to first ones.
  - watwut 6y ago
    Probably. But the lifestyle where you wake up at 5 so that you write so that you then work full time job is not sustainable.
jonnycomputer 6y ago
I do not think that the prose in On Blue's Waters was drab; I loved it. The sequels though were quite forgettable.
filoeleven 6y ago
I read in some interview with him or some piece about him that one of people’s biggest criticisms of New Sun was the elaborate prose. So he consciously chose to write more simply after that. In my own view, Long Sun is as good as New Sun: I don’t think the simpler prose detracts from it, it fits the tale and Silk’s personality (to say more threatens spoilers). We see a huge yet mostly stable set of characters evolve throughout the tale. Compare with New Sun which is mostly just Severian wandering around, having adventures and occasional encounters with characters from earlier. They are very different stories. After reading both series many times, Long Sun grew to be my favorite. This could change again. I agree that Fifth Head is fantastic, but when I tried to reread Peace I couldn’t get through it (it was apparently his own favorite). And I agree with your assessment of his post-2000 novels. I did enjoy The Sorcerer’s House and The Land Across, but neither is calling out to be read again, and their details are vague in my mind.
shmageggy 6y ago
Where would you say the Long Sun books fit into this? I've always been looking for the great book about generation ships, and I thought they might be it, but I just couldn't get into it. Are they worth revisiting now that I have a better idea what to expect?
- filoeleven 6y ago
  I’m not the parent poster, and I favor Long Sun currently (see my sibling post). With that in mind, I think this is a great book that is not about generation ships exactly, but the Whorl (the ship) is deeply involved in the plot...eventually. It starts out very small and slow: the entire first book takes place over the course of a single day and night. What you get, though, is a living city complete with petty squabbles, political intrigue, complex relationships, all from the perspective of people who have no idea that they are living inside of a man-made ship. They venerate the ancient technology they live with in a syncretistic religion that seems to have been created for that very purpose. As the story progresses, themes of identity come into larger play, and you start to see more of just how far awry the ship’s journey has gone compared to the intentions of the builders. Like most Wolfe books, things are progressively revealed that reshape your understanding of what came before—though you have to pay close attention to catch many of them. You are never handed the exposition of “this is how the ship works, here’s all the cool tech behind it.” Instead, you have to extrapolate it from what the characters know and are willing to reveal. It’s not fast-paced or action-packed; it’s very character-driven. I read that there are as many named characters as in War and Peace, over 500. I didn’t like the beginning the first time I read it; things get more interesting once Silk decides to rob Blood on the first night, and I think that’s when I started to warm up to it. So if you recall how far you got, and it was beyond that point, it may just not be to your liking. I’d go so far as to say that if you don’t want to read about Silk frying up tomatoes and feeling bad about not offering them to a workmate, you could try skipping ahead a hundred pages to see if it catches your interest then.
  - shmageggy 6y ago
    Thanks a bunch for the insight! I don't think I made it very far in, but this has definitely peaked my interest. I very well may give it another shot, as it sounds like there's definitely a payoff for the investment.
nathias 6y ago
the soldier trilogy is also great ...
caskstrength 6y ago
Wasn't The Book of the New Sun written in early 80s, not 70s? Anyway, Latro series is also considered very good by a lot of people (didn't like it that much personally, guess it requires reader to be into Greek history/mythology) and The Book of the Long Sun is great (I did like it a lot).
orthoxerox 6y ago
I found the Long Sun novels the weakest of all the Suns. Some plot points felt forced, some subplots were just quietly abandoned. The Short Sun is much better in comparison, although of course 5.HoC is a better BoSS than BoSS itself.
lordfoom 6y ago
Hard disagree. I thought 'The Sorceror's House', as well as "an evil guest" and am currently thoroughly enjoying "a borrowed man". BOTS is his magnum opus, but I wouldn't call his latter work "lesser".

ilamont 6y ago

I agree. It was much harder to get into his later work, including "Long Sun."

Finnucane 6y ago

The thing that changed for Gene was that he no longer had a day job. When he was working, he'd get up at 5 am to writer for two hours before leaving for work. The whole of the Book of the New Sun was written that way. Which meant there was a certain commercial pressure to sell books, and I think his consistency flagged. I worked at Tor in the mid-to-late 1990s. I don't think that Hartwell just accepted anything he sent, the process was a little more complicated than that, because David knew what he was working on. Gene had a tendency to resist editing; once he was done with a thing it was done. I think he had some good books in that period, but there wasn't going to be another Peace or Fifth Head of Cerebus.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
m463 6y ago
that's interesting. I wonder if the stimulus of a day at work with people and interactions and pressure and more could make something more meaningful come out. Sort of like a little external entropy added to the random number generator.
- kinghtown 6y ago
  I think there is some truth to this but I wouldn’t argue to keep a day job as a writer. The vast majority of recording artists are never able to match the music they recorded in their 20’s. I’ve commented on that before here so I won’t get into it further than to say that the world isn’t interested in middle aged musicians which in turn affects the work. I think someone like Thomas Pynchon shows that an author can very well be producing very good work well into the old age. There are rumours about him being both a professor or exCIA but I’m sure he’s been reasonably well off since the late 70s. While I haven’t read Bleeding Edge, his most recent novel, Inherent Vice is wild and excellent. Maybe keeping a job keeps a writer honest or at least in the public watching and note taking. But I don’t think this is always true and it would be heartbreaking to take the dream away from everyone about ever becoming a full-time novelist. I also don’t think making great art is easy. A few family deaths and accumulated illnesses and bad experience can really do a number on people. Not to suggest that this is Wolfe but there are many factors at play.
  - SamoyedFurFluff 6y ago
    Interestingly I think novelists can get better with age, see Ursula le guin or octavia butler. Or even now, jeff vandermeer and nalo hopkinson and nisi shawl.
  - watwut 6y ago
    I dont know about music (my favorite stuff is in older aga range frequently, but I don't know how much anecdotal it is). But, writers commonly get better with age. You see that if you read their later books and then go back to first ones.
- watwut 6y ago
  Probably. But the lifestyle where you wake up at 5 so that you write so that you then work full time job is not sustainable.

jonnycomputer 6y ago

I do not think that the prose in On Blue's Waters was drab; I loved it. The sequels though were quite forgettable.

filoeleven 6y ago

I read in some interview with him or some piece about him that one of people’s biggest criticisms of New Sun was the elaborate prose. So he consciously chose to write more simply after that. In my own view, Long Sun is as good as New Sun: I don’t think the simpler prose detracts from it, it fits the tale and Silk’s personality (to say more threatens spoilers). We see a huge yet mostly stable set of characters evolve throughout the tale. Compare with New Sun which is mostly just Severian wandering around, having adventures and occasional encounters with characters from earlier. They are very different stories. After reading both series many times, Long Sun grew to be my favorite. This could change again. I agree that Fifth Head is fantastic, but when I tried to reread Peace I couldn’t get through it (it was apparently his own favorite). And I agree with your assessment of his post-2000 novels. I did enjoy The Sorcerer’s House and The Land Across, but neither is calling out to be read again, and their details are vague in my mind.

shmageggy 6y ago

Where would you say the Long Sun books fit into this? I've always been looking for the great book about generation ships, and I thought they might be it, but I just couldn't get into it. Are they worth revisiting now that I have a better idea what to expect?

filoeleven 6y ago
I’m not the parent poster, and I favor Long Sun currently (see my sibling post). With that in mind, I think this is a great book that is not about generation ships exactly, but the Whorl (the ship) is deeply involved in the plot...eventually. It starts out very small and slow: the entire first book takes place over the course of a single day and night. What you get, though, is a living city complete with petty squabbles, political intrigue, complex relationships, all from the perspective of people who have no idea that they are living inside of a man-made ship. They venerate the ancient technology they live with in a syncretistic religion that seems to have been created for that very purpose. As the story progresses, themes of identity come into larger play, and you start to see more of just how far awry the ship’s journey has gone compared to the intentions of the builders. Like most Wolfe books, things are progressively revealed that reshape your understanding of what came before—though you have to pay close attention to catch many of them. You are never handed the exposition of “this is how the ship works, here’s all the cool tech behind it.” Instead, you have to extrapolate it from what the characters know and are willing to reveal. It’s not fast-paced or action-packed; it’s very character-driven. I read that there are as many named characters as in War and Peace, over 500. I didn’t like the beginning the first time I read it; things get more interesting once Silk decides to rob Blood on the first night, and I think that’s when I started to warm up to it. So if you recall how far you got, and it was beyond that point, it may just not be to your liking. I’d go so far as to say that if you don’t want to read about Silk frying up tomatoes and feeling bad about not offering them to a workmate, you could try skipping ahead a hundred pages to see if it catches your interest then.
- shmageggy 6y ago
  Thanks a bunch for the insight! I don't think I made it very far in, but this has definitely peaked my interest. I very well may give it another shot, as it sounds like there's definitely a payoff for the investment.

nathias 6y ago

the soldier trilogy is also great ...

caskstrength 6y ago

Wasn't The Book of the New Sun written in early 80s, not 70s? Anyway, Latro series is also considered very good by a lot of people (didn't like it that much personally, guess it requires reader to be into Greek history/mythology) and The Book of the Long Sun is great (I did like it a lot).

orthoxerox 6y ago

I found the Long Sun novels the weakest of all the Suns. Some plot points felt forced, some subplots were just quietly abandoned. The Short Sun is much better in comparison, although of course 5.HoC is a better BoSS than BoSS itself.

lordfoom 6y ago

Hard disagree. I thought 'The Sorceror's House', as well as "an evil guest" and am currently thoroughly enjoying "a borrowed man". BOTS is his magnum opus, but I wouldn't call his latter work "lesser".