7 ms·

I'm confused; I thought that Wifi 6E equipment using the 6GHz band was already available? I actually just ordered a wifi card based on the Intel AX210: https:/

I'm confused; I thought that Wifi 6E equipment using the 6GHz band was already available? I actually just ordered a wifi card based on the Intel AX210: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/wireless/wi-fi-6e-ax201-module-brief.html https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/wirele... I'm eagerly awaiting an AP that supports 6GHz and am hoping for a few years of relatively interference free wifi in an urban setting (like 5Ghz was for the first year or two).

metaxis78 6y ago
Although not ideal, 5GHz has significant wall reflection/reduced penetration. If you're in a dense, urban, noisy environment, you should still be able to achieve decent MCS on 5GHz in your home. 6GHz will add more spectrum with these characteristics, which will helpfully alleviate future performance concerns pretty thoroughly.
- drewg123 6y ago
  The problem I'm facing is that my friend is a streamer, and she can only reliably stream with a wired connection. When trying to use Wifi, she has frequent breakups of her stream. Using https://packetlosstest.com/ https://packetlosstest.com/, we see that frequently many packets are delayed several hundred MS. The only thing which has seemed to help is reducing the 5Ghz channel width and forcing the AP to use one of the lesser occupied 5Ghz channels. This is what has made me think that interference is the problem. A channel scan shows well over 100 APs.. EDIT: Are there AP features or tuning which will influence how well, and/or how quick it can react to interference? I've been hoping that the 6GHz band will improve things for her when 6Ghz APs become available. I was going to build her an AP using an Intel AX210, however I realized that the AX210 does not support AP mode so that plan won't work.
  - metaxis78 6y ago
    There are client priority features in wifi, but your device may not support them. If her antenna has line of sight to the BS then it's not likely to be interference but something else, like traffic congestion. I'm not sure what hardware/chipset you're using, but if it's consumer grade, that might be a big part of the problem. Competently executed prosumer/soho like the amplifi/unifi line or google wifi may make a huge difference. However, ethernet may just be the best option, especially for streaming.
    - willcipriano 6y ago
      In my view: If the packets absolutely positively have to get there on time, ethernet is the only option. WiFi has uses but constantly streaming large volumes of data without hiccups isn't one of them.
      - metaxis78 6y ago
        With wifi, you need to make accommodations as well. It's not just Magic Internet Waves. I've had no problem video conferencing on wifi, but I make sure to have reasonable line of sight to my AP. I also chose a model with a simplistic and streamlined design so that it didn't look awful placed prominently in my space.
  - scrps 6y ago
    Building a performant wifi network is a serious pain. Building material, channel congestion, network load, AP placement, other sources of RFI, etc all cause issues. Your best bet is look for APs that support 802.11r or v (also check that clients support it though most modern cards do) which allows seamless roaming between APs then replace the existing AP with 2 or 3 APs. If you want a cheaper solution you can try for a DIY site survey to try to find the best placement and channel for the existing AP.
  - labawi 6y ago
    Have you considered bringing an AP closer to the client? Especially on 5GHz a good line-of-sight / line-of-reflection is very helpful, and some extra 10-20dB of signal should compensate for a lot of interference. OFDM MU-MIMO AX 20000+ 1000$ routers with 20 antennas work better, but in an inconvenient location, when the noise floor is high, it has no chance to compete with a decent 2-antenna ac (or even n) AP with good signal propagation (same room vs. behind a wall somewhere). And it would be helpful if you can agree with your neighbors to use narrow channels (less competition and unintended interference), decrease radiation power (less distortion => better signal) and if supported, increase minimum bitrate (faster communication => less jamming). Also, lower transmission power and faster SSID broadcasts help induce roaming, for when you have multiple APs.
  - gnu8 6y ago
    > well over 100 APs.. With that many neighbors I am not sure if there is much that can be done. You can take steps on your network, but getting everyone else to cooperate is a different story. Even if they are willing, how many would be able to manage their channel allocations and transmit power?
  - chokeartist 6y ago
    Holy shit just run a wired connection. Stop your friend from torturing herself. I say this as a CCIE for 10+ years.
- stefan_ 6y ago
  The problem with 5GHz is that some 60% of the spectrum is locked behind 1/10 min DFS for ill-conceived radar coexistence, so all the APs usually bunch in the few channels that don't require that.
  - dboreham 6y ago
    If the AP supports DFS channels at all.
    - stefan_ 6y ago
      It cuts both ways - when 5GHz was new, there were lots of client devices that didn't support the DFS channels at all (even if as stations they don't need to do DFS). So still today AP vendors are cautious to use them because of the potential for support calls from people with older mobile devices that "don't show the AP at all".
      - dboreham 6y ago
        This can even happen on 2.4GHz with the extra channel allowed in Japan. Stations and AP can disagree about whether they're in Japan.
        stefan_ 6y ago
        2.4GHz channels are another of the many many regrettable paper cut things with WiFi. I have a 2.4 only gadget that the manufacturer ships with the narrowest regulatory settings so they can sell one SKU and it can't use channel 12 that is available almost everywhere but the US.
  - Reason077 6y ago
    I just suck it up and take the DFS hit, which seems to be about +30 seconds of additional router reboot time. The interference-free 80 Mhz channels are absolutely worth it! If my router could remember the DFS state between reboots it would be even better, though.
  - 6y ago
ksec 6y ago
Interesting you mentioned AX210. I have been asking and waiting for a response on WiFi 6E. Because right now AX210 doesn't have 6Ghz turned on. And its WiFi Certified document [1] does not have a 6Ghz listed. The WiFi Alliance also does not specifically mention 6Ghz support as being the requirement of WiFi 6E certified. I am under the impression for Intel, a software update will come once 6Ghz has been truly opened up in US. But this will be a first to see product adding new Frequency Spectrum support after its FCC testing and approval. The reason I ask and gone though these trouble is because I saw a few, namely Xiaomi released an WiFi 6E router with no support of 6Ghz. [1] Google: WFA101047 , Its an PDF File with no direct link
- drewg123 6y ago
  This is interesting. Indeed the certification report you found does not mention 6GHz. But according to Intel's AX210 whitepaper[1] "The product supports dual-stream Wi-Fi in the 2.4GHz, 5GHz and 6GHz bands". So I certainly hope it supports 6Ghz now. I'll be very disappointed if it doesn't. Is the Xiaomi router for sale with 6Ghz enabled? I can't seem to find it on their web site. I saw a few listings on AliExpress for a 2021 AX6000, but they did not mention 6Ghz. [1]: https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/product-briefs/wi-fi-6e-ax210-product-brief.pdf https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents...
  - ksec 6y ago
    >Is the Xiaomi router for sale with 6Ghz enabled? No it is not. Since there are no 6Ghz Spectrum time table in China. The official webpage for AX6000 is here [1] ( In Chinese ) And after I have made multiple enquiry to WiFI Alliance and Xiaomi they have somehow removed all mention of "WiFI 6E" from their pages. Instead referring it to WiFI 6 "enhanced". You can still see some site [2] and here [3] referring it to WiFi 6E. But I think within the last 48 hours they are actively removing all WiFI6E reference. Not sure if it has anything to do with my enquiry, considering no one on the internet actually cared to question and ask I would like to take some credit for it :D I would expect 6Ghz to work as advertise from Intel with software update. It is Intel after all and they have at least listed 6Ghz as being officially supported. Apology If I had caused any confusion. [1] https://www.mi.com/r6000 https://www.mi.com/r6000 [2] https://www.gsmarena.com/xiaomi_demos_its_wifi_6e_ax6000_router_by_pitting_the_xiaomi_mi_11_against_the_iphone_12_pro_max-news-46996.php https://www.gsmarena.com/xiaomi_demos_its_wifi_6e_ax6000_rou... [3] https://www.notebookcheck.net/Xiaomi-promotes-its-new-Wi-Fi-6E-router-with-an-Apple-baiting-YouTube-video.512923.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Xiaomi-promotes-its-new-Wi-Fi-...
tradertef 6y ago
The "licensed crowd" that advocate for auctioning/licensing the band has lost in US already. However, they are advocating for licensing part of the band in other regions, e.g. Europe/Africa. Specifically, they are advocating for licensing above 6425 MHz.

metaxis78 6y ago

Although not ideal, 5GHz has significant wall reflection/reduced penetration. If you're in a dense, urban, noisy environment, you should still be able to achieve decent MCS on 5GHz in your home. 6GHz will add more spectrum with these characteristics, which will helpfully alleviate future performance concerns pretty thoroughly.

drewg123 6y ago
The problem I'm facing is that my friend is a streamer, and she can only reliably stream with a wired connection. When trying to use Wifi, she has frequent breakups of her stream. Using https://packetlosstest.com/ https://packetlosstest.com/, we see that frequently many packets are delayed several hundred MS. The only thing which has seemed to help is reducing the 5Ghz channel width and forcing the AP to use one of the lesser occupied 5Ghz channels. This is what has made me think that interference is the problem. A channel scan shows well over 100 APs.. EDIT: Are there AP features or tuning which will influence how well, and/or how quick it can react to interference? I've been hoping that the 6GHz band will improve things for her when 6Ghz APs become available. I was going to build her an AP using an Intel AX210, however I realized that the AX210 does not support AP mode so that plan won't work.
- metaxis78 6y ago
  There are client priority features in wifi, but your device may not support them. If her antenna has line of sight to the BS then it's not likely to be interference but something else, like traffic congestion. I'm not sure what hardware/chipset you're using, but if it's consumer grade, that might be a big part of the problem. Competently executed prosumer/soho like the amplifi/unifi line or google wifi may make a huge difference. However, ethernet may just be the best option, especially for streaming.
  - willcipriano 6y ago
    In my view: If the packets absolutely positively have to get there on time, ethernet is the only option. WiFi has uses but constantly streaming large volumes of data without hiccups isn't one of them.
    - metaxis78 6y ago
      With wifi, you need to make accommodations as well. It's not just Magic Internet Waves. I've had no problem video conferencing on wifi, but I make sure to have reasonable line of sight to my AP. I also chose a model with a simplistic and streamlined design so that it didn't look awful placed prominently in my space.
- scrps 6y ago
  Building a performant wifi network is a serious pain. Building material, channel congestion, network load, AP placement, other sources of RFI, etc all cause issues. Your best bet is look for APs that support 802.11r or v (also check that clients support it though most modern cards do) which allows seamless roaming between APs then replace the existing AP with 2 or 3 APs. If you want a cheaper solution you can try for a DIY site survey to try to find the best placement and channel for the existing AP.
- labawi 6y ago
  Have you considered bringing an AP closer to the client? Especially on 5GHz a good line-of-sight / line-of-reflection is very helpful, and some extra 10-20dB of signal should compensate for a lot of interference. OFDM MU-MIMO AX 20000+ 1000$ routers with 20 antennas work better, but in an inconvenient location, when the noise floor is high, it has no chance to compete with a decent 2-antenna ac (or even n) AP with good signal propagation (same room vs. behind a wall somewhere). And it would be helpful if you can agree with your neighbors to use narrow channels (less competition and unintended interference), decrease radiation power (less distortion => better signal) and if supported, increase minimum bitrate (faster communication => less jamming). Also, lower transmission power and faster SSID broadcasts help induce roaming, for when you have multiple APs.
- gnu8 6y ago
  > well over 100 APs.. With that many neighbors I am not sure if there is much that can be done. You can take steps on your network, but getting everyone else to cooperate is a different story. Even if they are willing, how many would be able to manage their channel allocations and transmit power?
- chokeartist 6y ago
  Holy shit just run a wired connection. Stop your friend from torturing herself. I say this as a CCIE for 10+ years.
stefan_ 6y ago
The problem with 5GHz is that some 60% of the spectrum is locked behind 1/10 min DFS for ill-conceived radar coexistence, so all the APs usually bunch in the few channels that don't require that.
- dboreham 6y ago
  If the AP supports DFS channels at all.
  - stefan_ 6y ago
    It cuts both ways - when 5GHz was new, there were lots of client devices that didn't support the DFS channels at all (even if as stations they don't need to do DFS). So still today AP vendors are cautious to use them because of the potential for support calls from people with older mobile devices that "don't show the AP at all".
    - dboreham 6y ago
      This can even happen on 2.4GHz with the extra channel allowed in Japan. Stations and AP can disagree about whether they're in Japan.
      - stefan_ 6y ago
        2.4GHz channels are another of the many many regrettable paper cut things with WiFi. I have a 2.4 only gadget that the manufacturer ships with the narrowest regulatory settings so they can sell one SKU and it can't use channel 12 that is available almost everywhere but the US.
- Reason077 6y ago
  I just suck it up and take the DFS hit, which seems to be about +30 seconds of additional router reboot time. The interference-free 80 Mhz channels are absolutely worth it! If my router could remember the DFS state between reboots it would be even better, though.
- 6y ago

ksec 6y ago

Interesting you mentioned AX210. I have been asking and waiting for a response on WiFi 6E. Because right now AX210 doesn't have 6Ghz turned on. And its WiFi Certified document [1] does not have a 6Ghz listed. The WiFi Alliance also does not specifically mention 6Ghz support as being the requirement of WiFi 6E certified. I am under the impression for Intel, a software update will come once 6Ghz has been truly opened up in US. But this will be a first to see product adding new Frequency Spectrum support after its FCC testing and approval. The reason I ask and gone though these trouble is because I saw a few, namely Xiaomi released an WiFi 6E router with no support of 6Ghz. [1] Google: WFA101047 , Its an PDF File with no direct link

drewg123 6y ago
This is interesting. Indeed the certification report you found does not mention 6GHz. But according to Intel's AX210 whitepaper[1] "The product supports dual-stream Wi-Fi in the 2.4GHz, 5GHz and 6GHz bands". So I certainly hope it supports 6Ghz now. I'll be very disappointed if it doesn't. Is the Xiaomi router for sale with 6Ghz enabled? I can't seem to find it on their web site. I saw a few listings on AliExpress for a 2021 AX6000, but they did not mention 6Ghz. [1]: https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/product-briefs/wi-fi-6e-ax210-product-brief.pdf https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents...
- ksec 6y ago
  >Is the Xiaomi router for sale with 6Ghz enabled? No it is not. Since there are no 6Ghz Spectrum time table in China. The official webpage for AX6000 is here [1] ( In Chinese ) And after I have made multiple enquiry to WiFI Alliance and Xiaomi they have somehow removed all mention of "WiFI 6E" from their pages. Instead referring it to WiFI 6 "enhanced". You can still see some site [2] and here [3] referring it to WiFi 6E. But I think within the last 48 hours they are actively removing all WiFI6E reference. Not sure if it has anything to do with my enquiry, considering no one on the internet actually cared to question and ask I would like to take some credit for it :D I would expect 6Ghz to work as advertise from Intel with software update. It is Intel after all and they have at least listed 6Ghz as being officially supported. Apology If I had caused any confusion. [1] https://www.mi.com/r6000 https://www.mi.com/r6000 [2] https://www.gsmarena.com/xiaomi_demos_its_wifi_6e_ax6000_router_by_pitting_the_xiaomi_mi_11_against_the_iphone_12_pro_max-news-46996.php https://www.gsmarena.com/xiaomi_demos_its_wifi_6e_ax6000_rou... [3] https://www.notebookcheck.net/Xiaomi-promotes-its-new-Wi-Fi-6E-router-with-an-Apple-baiting-YouTube-video.512923.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Xiaomi-promotes-its-new-Wi-Fi-...

tradertef 6y ago

The "licensed crowd" that advocate for auctioning/licensing the band has lost in US already. However, they are advocating for licensing part of the band in other regions, e.g. Europe/Africa. Specifically, they are advocating for licensing above 6425 MHz.