8 ms·

is it? my 2016 macbook was the worst apple product i've ever owned...

by rightisleft 6y ago

midrus 6y ago
Worst apple product is still far ahead of most non-apple alternatives. At least laptops wise.
- Wohlf 6y ago
  I really don't find them any better than the competing products in the same price range these days, but you do you.
  - samatman 6y ago
    Resale value is the closest thing to an objective measure we're going to get. The butterfly keyboard era Macs took a nosedive in this metric, because they were bad computers. I have what turns out to be the last Intel 16" MacBook Pro which Apple will ever build. I suspect the Intel part of it will make its resale value kind of grim, but the keyboard, speakers, monitor, build quality: all great. MacBooks traditionally resell at a significant premium, because they're good computers with a long useful life. I expect this will be true for the M-series as well, although it's too soon to know.
    - klelatti 6y ago
      I bought a new Intel 13" MBP just before the M1 announcement specifically because I needed an x86 machine. No intention to sell but I suspect resale value will stay OK as there is likely to be ongoing demand from those who want a Mac for x86 cloud development (and non-technical users probably don't care if its x86 or M1).
      - kube-system 6y ago
        My shop is also all x86 in the cloud... but I took the plunge anyway. I'm glad I did; Rosetta 2 works really well.
        klelatti 6y ago
        That's good to hear. The critical issue for me would be running an x86 (incldung AVX) Docker image on M1. Reasonably sure that's not going to happen in the near future.
        kube-system 6y ago
        FWIW I think they've got QEMU baked in to docker desktop to emulate x86. But I've just been using a remote docker daemon.
        klelatti 6y ago
        Thanks - that'a really helpful to know. I'm not sure that QEMU has AVX but will investigate further.
  - midrus 6y ago
    Show me your examples of competing products.
- reader_mode 6y ago
  My previous ThinkPad X1 is a superior device to my 15 inch i9 MBP (2018) in every way - thermals, keyboard, touchscreen, issues with 5k display for over a year, Bluetooth issues. I needed a Mac for iOS development so I went all out since I do all sort of development - and this is by far the worst premium device I owned. With that said M1 Macs look really good and I'll probably upgrade if they refresh the 16 inch.
  - midrus 6y ago
    I did use a thinkpad X1 for a long time some years ago, I actually want to go back to an X1, it is the best alternative. But honestly, if I go back to it would be making a good bunch of trade-offs as well and mostly to satisfy my inner wish of using Linux and Open Source software instead of Macos. But still: 1) After a few months, the screen of the thinkpad started to get permanent scratches from the keyboards. This is a common problem, see [1] 2) The keyboard is better, totally agree. But the trackpad is much, much worse. I managed to adapt to the bad keyboard on the mac, I didn't manage to adapt to the trackpad on the X1. 3) The quality of the screen has no point of comparisson. Color gamut, calibration, resolution, etc. I like the WQHD screen, but it is not available for the X1 on many countrie outside the US. In my country (Spain) you only have the UHD which is a fantastic battery draining mirror or the FHD which reminds me of the nintendo 64 when looking at it. Let's not talk about scaling hi dpi resolutions, and deciding if using Wayland or Xorg so that I can plug an external screen with different resolution, etc. 4)Battery usage is not as optimized 5) I think nowadays this is better, but at the time (around 3 or 4 years afgo) I had lots of problems on Linux with bluetooth, resuming after suspending, and the fingerprint reader. Hopefully this has improved since then. 6) Price wise, they are as expensive as an equivalent macbook A being "good" or "bad" has a lot of aspects to it. It is not just "It has the same CPU freq and the same amount of memory then they are equivalent" (not what you're saying but something many say when doing this comparison). Build quality matters, integration/support with the operating system matters, support matters, upgradeability matters, resale value matters. And also, just compare the f*ng mess the Lenovo website is. Every time I think about going back to thinkpad, browsing such a terrible, slow, clunky, outdated, terrible thought out website makes me regret it and just close the tab. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=thinkpad+screen+keyboard+scratched&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi124yn4YbuAhUGjhQKHQVXBgIQ_AUoAXoECBsQAw&cshid=1609917318306672&biw=1440&bih=764 https://www.google.com/search?q=thinkpad+screen+keyboard+scr...
djsumdog 6y ago
I got Linux running on a MacBook 14,3. It was ... less than ideal. https://battlepenguin.com/tech/linux-on-a-macbook-pro-14-3/ https://battlepenguin.com/tech/linux-on-a-macbook-pro-14-3/ ..but I also don't want to see Linux get left in the dust. I'm more likely Intel or AMD crush the M1 in their next few generations.
- ravi-delia 6y ago
  I think that's pretty unlikely. The M1 is a totally new world from even the best x86 processors, especially in a laptop. Not only that, but Apple has indicated that the next generation is yet another quantum leap from this one. Eventually other companies will catch up, but I doubt it will be anyone without a stake in ARM already. NVIDIA looks like the one to do it.
- Pokepokalypse 6y ago
  I have run Linux on a Macbook pro (several times; several different models; up until around 2013). Was always a good experience . . . EXCEPT: trying to get power management dialed-in. (a package from Apple would be very helpful here). Of course, now with TouchBar, I have no idea if that is even supported on Linux at all. I assume it's not, and if it is, it's a complete pain in the ass. (but honestly - could possibly be GREAT, if it weren't for the loss of the 'esc' key). I seem to recall getting Debian running on my dual PPC Mac Pro was also difficult; with power management - but on the other hand, I was using it as a server and ran it full-blast 24x7 anyway. Damn that thing was loud. I only see the M1 making power management that much more complicated, (due to custom chipset and lack of support from tools that are standard on x86-based linux distros). The main thing you'd stand to gain from the M1 platform is power and heat management. So I am cautiously optimistic that anyone wanting to port linux there will possibly pay close attention to putting together a package of tools that will work.
saagarjha 6y ago
I think you're comparing it to the wrong thing.
ksec 6y ago
Well All 2016 - 2019 MacBook are pretty much junk. As shown by their resale value. So it was probably one of the worst Apple product ever. But the Pre-2015 MacBook Pro and M1? They are great. ( Although M1 still have shitty keyboard )
- Pokepokalypse 6y ago
  I'm still using my 2013 MBP on a daily basis. Fucking beast. Though I need to do a battery swap. Far superior to my 2019 MBP my employer got me.
  - oneplane 6y ago
    While I understand what everyone is complaining about, I have no problems or failures with any of them, except a battery swap on the 2015 13" when it started swelling up after 2000 cycles. The keyboards and trackpads are different but I can do my work on them just fine all the same. The 2017 has the benefit (to me) of working a bit like the Magic Keyboard 2, the 2019 is not that much different from that, and as far as the other user-facing I/O is concerned, the screen, sound, ports and palmrests are all pretty good. The 2015 is starting to feel a bit odd (small keys, small trackpad) and without Thunderbolt 2 the I/O would not have the bandwidth I wanted. The only thing I have had break was a 2009 MagSafe charger, the insulation somewhere in the middle started getting brittle, probably some sort of chemical reaction causing it to lose its flexibility. But since I only have 1 MagSafe first revision device left it doesn't matter that much. (and I don't use it that much either)
- MobiusHorizons 6y ago
  > Although M1 still have shitty keyboard Curious have you used the new M1 keyboard? It's a totally different mechanism, and feels completely different than the ~2019 MBP I have for work. I would go so far as to say that the 2019 keyboard was hands-down the worst keyboard I have ever used, but the new one is really excellent. I really enjoy mine. It seems to me to be one of the better laptop keyboards I have ever used. Maybe not quite as nice as some of the better lenovo models, although I'm not quite sure. If you have used the new keyboards, what do you dislike about them?
nvarsj 6y ago
Yeah of course it is! Don't you know how the Cult of Apple works? We proclaim it is, so it is. Edit: Whoops, I broke the first rule of the Cult... Here come the downvotes.

is it? my 2016 macbook was the worst apple product i've ever owned...

midrus 6y ago

Worst apple product is still far ahead of most non-apple alternatives. At least laptops wise.

Wohlf 6y ago
I really don't find them any better than the competing products in the same price range these days, but you do you.
- samatman 6y ago
  Resale value is the closest thing to an objective measure we're going to get. The butterfly keyboard era Macs took a nosedive in this metric, because they were bad computers. I have what turns out to be the last Intel 16" MacBook Pro which Apple will ever build. I suspect the Intel part of it will make its resale value kind of grim, but the keyboard, speakers, monitor, build quality: all great. MacBooks traditionally resell at a significant premium, because they're good computers with a long useful life. I expect this will be true for the M-series as well, although it's too soon to know.
  - klelatti 6y ago
    I bought a new Intel 13" MBP just before the M1 announcement specifically because I needed an x86 machine. No intention to sell but I suspect resale value will stay OK as there is likely to be ongoing demand from those who want a Mac for x86 cloud development (and non-technical users probably don't care if its x86 or M1).
    - kube-system 6y ago
      My shop is also all x86 in the cloud... but I took the plunge anyway. I'm glad I did; Rosetta 2 works really well.
      - klelatti 6y ago
        That's good to hear. The critical issue for me would be running an x86 (incldung AVX) Docker image on M1. Reasonably sure that's not going to happen in the near future.
        kube-system 6y ago
        FWIW I think they've got QEMU baked in to docker desktop to emulate x86. But I've just been using a remote docker daemon.
        klelatti 6y ago
        Thanks - that'a really helpful to know. I'm not sure that QEMU has AVX but will investigate further.
- midrus 6y ago
  Show me your examples of competing products.
reader_mode 6y ago
My previous ThinkPad X1 is a superior device to my 15 inch i9 MBP (2018) in every way - thermals, keyboard, touchscreen, issues with 5k display for over a year, Bluetooth issues. I needed a Mac for iOS development so I went all out since I do all sort of development - and this is by far the worst premium device I owned. With that said M1 Macs look really good and I'll probably upgrade if they refresh the 16 inch.
- midrus 6y ago
  I did use a thinkpad X1 for a long time some years ago, I actually want to go back to an X1, it is the best alternative. But honestly, if I go back to it would be making a good bunch of trade-offs as well and mostly to satisfy my inner wish of using Linux and Open Source software instead of Macos. But still: 1) After a few months, the screen of the thinkpad started to get permanent scratches from the keyboards. This is a common problem, see [1] 2) The keyboard is better, totally agree. But the trackpad is much, much worse. I managed to adapt to the bad keyboard on the mac, I didn't manage to adapt to the trackpad on the X1. 3) The quality of the screen has no point of comparisson. Color gamut, calibration, resolution, etc. I like the WQHD screen, but it is not available for the X1 on many countrie outside the US. In my country (Spain) you only have the UHD which is a fantastic battery draining mirror or the FHD which reminds me of the nintendo 64 when looking at it. Let's not talk about scaling hi dpi resolutions, and deciding if using Wayland or Xorg so that I can plug an external screen with different resolution, etc. 4)Battery usage is not as optimized 5) I think nowadays this is better, but at the time (around 3 or 4 years afgo) I had lots of problems on Linux with bluetooth, resuming after suspending, and the fingerprint reader. Hopefully this has improved since then. 6) Price wise, they are as expensive as an equivalent macbook A being "good" or "bad" has a lot of aspects to it. It is not just "It has the same CPU freq and the same amount of memory then they are equivalent" (not what you're saying but something many say when doing this comparison). Build quality matters, integration/support with the operating system matters, support matters, upgradeability matters, resale value matters. And also, just compare the f*ng mess the Lenovo website is. Every time I think about going back to thinkpad, browsing such a terrible, slow, clunky, outdated, terrible thought out website makes me regret it and just close the tab. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=thinkpad+screen+keyboard+scratched&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi124yn4YbuAhUGjhQKHQVXBgIQ_AUoAXoECBsQAw&cshid=1609917318306672&biw=1440&bih=764 https://www.google.com/search?q=thinkpad+screen+keyboard+scr...

djsumdog 6y ago

I got Linux running on a MacBook 14,3. It was ... less than ideal. https://battlepenguin.com/tech/linux-on-a-macbook-pro-14-3/ https://battlepenguin.com/tech/linux-on-a-macbook-pro-14-3/ ..but I also don't want to see Linux get left in the dust. I'm more likely Intel or AMD crush the M1 in their next few generations.

ravi-delia 6y ago
I think that's pretty unlikely. The M1 is a totally new world from even the best x86 processors, especially in a laptop. Not only that, but Apple has indicated that the next generation is yet another quantum leap from this one. Eventually other companies will catch up, but I doubt it will be anyone without a stake in ARM already. NVIDIA looks like the one to do it.
Pokepokalypse 6y ago
I have run Linux on a Macbook pro (several times; several different models; up until around 2013). Was always a good experience . . . EXCEPT: trying to get power management dialed-in. (a package from Apple would be very helpful here). Of course, now with TouchBar, I have no idea if that is even supported on Linux at all. I assume it's not, and if it is, it's a complete pain in the ass. (but honestly - could possibly be GREAT, if it weren't for the loss of the 'esc' key). I seem to recall getting Debian running on my dual PPC Mac Pro was also difficult; with power management - but on the other hand, I was using it as a server and ran it full-blast 24x7 anyway. Damn that thing was loud. I only see the M1 making power management that much more complicated, (due to custom chipset and lack of support from tools that are standard on x86-based linux distros). The main thing you'd stand to gain from the M1 platform is power and heat management. So I am cautiously optimistic that anyone wanting to port linux there will possibly pay close attention to putting together a package of tools that will work.

saagarjha 6y ago

I think you're comparing it to the wrong thing.

ksec 6y ago

Well All 2016 - 2019 MacBook are pretty much junk. As shown by their resale value. So it was probably one of the worst Apple product ever. But the Pre-2015 MacBook Pro and M1? They are great. ( Although M1 still have shitty keyboard )

Pokepokalypse 6y ago
I'm still using my 2013 MBP on a daily basis. Fucking beast. Though I need to do a battery swap. Far superior to my 2019 MBP my employer got me.
- oneplane 6y ago
  While I understand what everyone is complaining about, I have no problems or failures with any of them, except a battery swap on the 2015 13" when it started swelling up after 2000 cycles. The keyboards and trackpads are different but I can do my work on them just fine all the same. The 2017 has the benefit (to me) of working a bit like the Magic Keyboard 2, the 2019 is not that much different from that, and as far as the other user-facing I/O is concerned, the screen, sound, ports and palmrests are all pretty good. The 2015 is starting to feel a bit odd (small keys, small trackpad) and without Thunderbolt 2 the I/O would not have the bandwidth I wanted. The only thing I have had break was a 2009 MagSafe charger, the insulation somewhere in the middle started getting brittle, probably some sort of chemical reaction causing it to lose its flexibility. But since I only have 1 MagSafe first revision device left it doesn't matter that much. (and I don't use it that much either)
MobiusHorizons 6y ago
> Although M1 still have shitty keyboard Curious have you used the new M1 keyboard? It's a totally different mechanism, and feels completely different than the ~2019 MBP I have for work. I would go so far as to say that the 2019 keyboard was hands-down the worst keyboard I have ever used, but the new one is really excellent. I really enjoy mine. It seems to me to be one of the better laptop keyboards I have ever used. Maybe not quite as nice as some of the better lenovo models, although I'm not quite sure. If you have used the new keyboards, what do you dislike about them?

nvarsj 6y ago

Yeah of course it is! Don't you know how the Cult of Apple works? We proclaim it is, so it is. Edit: Whoops, I broke the first rule of the Cult... Here come the downvotes.