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A lot of time, money and effort invested to support a platform whos creator is unwilling to provide support. I think it's part of the Linux ethos to run on eve
by turbinerneiter 6y ago
A lot of time, money and effort invested to support a platform whos creator is unwilling to provide support.
I think it's part of the Linux ethos to run on everything, but I also think this kind of effort is ... not wasted, but I feel like it could be spent more efficiently.
Still looking forward to hear about the first successful boots and the epic reverse engineering feats.
Just wish this kind of stuff wouldn't be needed anymore and companies would just release their specs already.
- pkulak 6y agoMac hardware is just so damn good though. And everywhere. I absolutely agree with what you're saying... but man, Linux working well on an M1 Mac would be my ideal machine.
- rightisleft 6y agois it? my 2016 macbook was the worst apple product i've ever owned...
- midrus 6y agoWorst apple product is still far ahead of most non-apple alternatives. At least laptops wise.
- Wohlf 6y agoI really don't find them any better than the competing products in the same price range these days, but you do you.
- samatman 6y agoResale value is the closest thing to an objective measure we're going to get. The butterfly keyboard era Macs took a nosedive in this metric, because they were bad computers. I have what turns out to be the last Intel 16" MacBook Pro which Apple will ever build. I suspect the Intel part of it will make its resale value kind of grim, but the keyboard, speakers, monitor, build quality: all great. MacBooks traditionally resell at a significant premium, because they're good computers with a long useful life. I expect this will be true for the M-series as well, although it's too soon to know.
- klelatti 6y agoI bought a new Intel 13" MBP just before the M1 announcement specifically because I needed an x86 machine. No intention to sell but I suspect resale value will stay OK as there is likely to be ongoing demand from those who want a Mac for x86 cloud development (and non-technical users probably don't care if its x86 or M1).
- kube-system 6y agoMy shop is also all x86 in the cloud... but I took the plunge anyway. I'm glad I did; Rosetta 2 works really well.
- klelatti 6y agoThat's good to hear. The critical issue for me would be running an x86 (incldung AVX) Docker image on M1. Reasonably sure that's not going to happen in the near future.
- kube-system 6y agoFWIW I think they've got QEMU baked in to docker desktop to emulate x86. But I've just been using a remote docker daemon.
- klelatti 6y agoThanks - that'a really helpful to know. I'm not sure that QEMU has AVX but will investigate further.
- midrus 6y agoShow me your examples of competing products.
- reader_mode 6y agoMy previous ThinkPad X1 is a superior device to my 15 inch i9 MBP (2018) in every way - thermals, keyboard, touchscreen, issues with 5k display for over a year, Bluetooth issues. I needed a Mac for iOS development so I went all out since I do all sort of development - and this is by far the worst premium device I owned. With that said M1 Macs look really good and I'll probably upgrade if they refresh the 16 inch.
- midrus 6y agoI did use a thinkpad X1 for a long time some years ago, I actually want to go back to an X1, it is the best alternative. But honestly, if I go back to it would be making a good bunch of trade-offs as well and mostly to satisfy my inner wish of using Linux and Open Source software instead of Macos. But still: 1) After a few months, the screen of the thinkpad started to get permanent scratches from the keyboards. This is a common problem, see [1] 2) The keyboard is better, totally agree. But the trackpad is much, much worse. I managed to adapt to the bad keyboard on the mac, I didn't manage to adapt to the trackpad on the X1. 3) The quality of the screen has no point of comparisson. Color gamut, calibration, resolution, etc. I like the WQHD screen, but it is not available for the X1 on many countrie outside the US. In my country (Spain) you only have the UHD which is a fantastic battery draining mirror or the FHD which reminds me of the nintendo 64 when looking at it. Let's not talk about scaling hi dpi resolutions, and deciding if using Wayland or Xorg so that I can plug an external screen with different resolution, etc. 4)Battery usage is not as optimized 5) I think nowadays this is better, but at the time (around 3 or 4 years afgo) I had lots of problems on Linux with bluetooth, resuming after suspending, and the fingerprint reader. Hopefully this has improved since then. 6) Price wise, they are as expensive as an equivalent macbook A being "good" or "bad" has a lot of aspects to it. It is not just "It has the same CPU freq and the same amount of memory then they are equivalent" (not what you're saying but something many say when doing this comparison). Build quality matters, integration/support with the operating system matters, support matters, upgradeability matters, resale value matters. And also, just compare the f*ng mess the Lenovo website is. Every time I think about going back to thinkpad, browsing such a terrible, slow, clunky, outdated, terrible thought out website makes me regret it and just close the tab. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=thinkpad+screen+keyboard+scratched&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi124yn4YbuAhUGjhQKHQVXBgIQ_AUoAXoECBsQAw&cshid=1609917318306672&biw=1440&bih=764 https://www.google.com/search?q=thinkpad+screen+keyboard+scr...
- djsumdog 6y agoI got Linux running on a MacBook 14,3. It was ... less than ideal. https://battlepenguin.com/tech/linux-on-a-macbook-pro-14-3/ https://battlepenguin.com/tech/linux-on-a-macbook-pro-14-3/ ..but I also don't want to see Linux get left in the dust. I'm more likely Intel or AMD crush the M1 in their next few generations.
- ravi-delia 6y agoI think that's pretty unlikely. The M1 is a totally new world from even the best x86 processors, especially in a laptop. Not only that, but Apple has indicated that the next generation is yet another quantum leap from this one. Eventually other companies will catch up, but I doubt it will be anyone without a stake in ARM already. NVIDIA looks like the one to do it.
- Pokepokalypse 6y agoI have run Linux on a Macbook pro (several times; several different models; up until around 2013). Was always a good experience . . . EXCEPT: trying to get power management dialed-in. (a package from Apple would be very helpful here). Of course, now with TouchBar, I have no idea if that is even supported on Linux at all. I assume it's not, and if it is, it's a complete pain in the ass. (but honestly - could possibly be GREAT, if it weren't for the loss of the 'esc' key). I seem to recall getting Debian running on my dual PPC Mac Pro was also difficult; with power management - but on the other hand, I was using it as a server and ran it full-blast 24x7 anyway. Damn that thing was loud. I only see the M1 making power management that much more complicated, (due to custom chipset and lack of support from tools that are standard on x86-based linux distros). The main thing you'd stand to gain from the M1 platform is power and heat management. So I am cautiously optimistic that anyone wanting to port linux there will possibly pay close attention to putting together a package of tools that will work.
- saagarjha 6y agoI think you're comparing it to the wrong thing.
- ksec 6y agoWell All 2016 - 2019 MacBook are pretty much junk. As shown by their resale value. So it was probably one of the worst Apple product ever. But the Pre-2015 MacBook Pro and M1? They are great. ( Although M1 still have shitty keyboard )
- Pokepokalypse 6y agoI'm still using my 2013 MBP on a daily basis. Fucking beast. Though I need to do a battery swap. Far superior to my 2019 MBP my employer got me.
- oneplane 6y agoWhile I understand what everyone is complaining about, I have no problems or failures with any of them, except a battery swap on the 2015 13" when it started swelling up after 2000 cycles. The keyboards and trackpads are different but I can do my work on them just fine all the same. The 2017 has the benefit (to me) of working a bit like the Magic Keyboard 2, the 2019 is not that much different from that, and as far as the other user-facing I/O is concerned, the screen, sound, ports and palmrests are all pretty good. The 2015 is starting to feel a bit odd (small keys, small trackpad) and without Thunderbolt 2 the I/O would not have the bandwidth I wanted. The only thing I have had break was a 2009 MagSafe charger, the insulation somewhere in the middle started getting brittle, probably some sort of chemical reaction causing it to lose its flexibility. But since I only have 1 MagSafe first revision device left it doesn't matter that much. (and I don't use it that much either)
- MobiusHorizons 6y ago> Although M1 still have shitty keyboard Curious have you used the new M1 keyboard? It's a totally different mechanism, and feels completely different than the ~2019 MBP I have for work. I would go so far as to say that the 2019 keyboard was hands-down the worst keyboard I have ever used, but the new one is really excellent. I really enjoy mine. It seems to me to be one of the better laptop keyboards I have ever used. Maybe not quite as nice as some of the better lenovo models, although I'm not quite sure. If you have used the new keyboards, what do you dislike about them?
- nvarsj 6y agoYeah of course it is! Don't you know how the Cult of Apple works? We proclaim it is, so it is. Edit: Whoops, I broke the first rule of the Cult... Here come the downvotes.
- marmaduke 6y agoWould it be materially different than Linux running in a VM on m1? Because you can have that now
- ed25519FUUU 6y agoWhat VM matches the performance of a mac mini?
- viraptor 6y agoTrying to display at native full screen resolution from a VM is not a great experience. Or at least I couldn't achieve that without lag on any hypervisor. On top of that you're paying the battery tax because of virtualisation.
- Megranium 6y agoIt doesn't feel "right", there's resolution issues, and I never got real-time, low-latency sound running in any VM ... so, I'd say yes, by all means.
- comex 6y agoGPU support would make a big difference.
- wmf 6y agoI would expect a VM to have better GPU support since AFAIK Parallels and Fusion have already implemented it.
- SomeHacker44 6y agoEvery time I accidentally hit something on the touch bar, I hate that I still have a Mac. Every time I intentionally use the ESC and have to touch it two or three times, I hate the Mac. Every time I need an F key, or want to do something without looking (like change volume or hit mute), I hate the Mac. Thank goodness this year I stopped using it so much as I did not have to repair the keyboard twice and potentially get COVID as in previous years. All in all, I am glad to dislike Macs with their abysmally bad keyboards and actively hostile and negatively productive touch bar. WSL is pretty nice.
- will_pseudonym 6y agoThe critiques you have of Macbooks of touchbar and keyboard wouldn't apply to the Mac Mini. And they have an M1 Mac Mini. Personally, I would love an M1 Mac Mini that ran Linux well. Very exciting development.
- astrange 6y agoThey don't even apply to Mac laptops, which have different keyboards and a physical Esc key now.
- skavi 6y agoThey’ve swapped out the butterfly switches for more conventional scissors. They’ve also added back a hardware ESC for all models and never added a touchbar to the Air.
- pkulak 6y agoI've got two 2015 Mac Book pros kickin' around my house and they're amazing. Add in the M1 Air I just picked up and it looks like my perceptions are a bit colored by skipping that 4-year Mac Book dark era.
- EamonnMR 6y agoI mapped caps lock to escape and liked it so much I did it on my thinkpad too.
- viktorcode 6y ago
- monopoledance 6y agoFor me, to specify, Linux on an "iPad" with either chip. Laptops are a (now) horrible legacy design. If I want more compute, I would like the "iPad" as screen for a "Mac mini" sized system. 1. Linux 2. Not Intel 3. Good screen for text, "13 inch" 4. Pen input, for writing and drawing 5. Battery life My dreams are modest; fuck you universe!
- spurdoman77 6y agoIf they arent actively opposing it that can be enough.
- ravi-delia 6y agoOn any other apple computer I'd agree, but I really want some of that sweet ARM magic.
- turbinerneiter 6y agoJust wait for SiFive and RISC-V, that's going to be the revolution I'll join :)
- zucker42 6y agoNot useful for someone who wants a laptop within the next 10 years. Top of the line laptops are probably going to be last devices that adopt RISC-V even assuming it significantly gains market share from ARM and x86.
- ravi-delia 6y agoOh believe me I fully intend to ride that train, but I'll wait for it to get to the station first.
- nanagojo 6y agoThey simply don't have the funds or fab to compete with M1
- astrange 6y agoRISC-V is a kind of lame and poorly designed ISA and the hardware designs aren't going to be nearly as fast.
- thrwyoilarticle 6y agoDon't you still have to pay to license SiFive IP?
- DevKoala 6y agoYeah, I also see a tough situation developing a few years down the road when Apple inevitably closes the platform even more and harms features of this project. Hopefully I am wrong.
- ogre_codes 6y ago> inevitably It's been inevitable for 10+ years now. Maybe this word doesn't mean what you think it means.
- DevKoala 6y agoRegardless of semantics, I think my comment was too pessimistic and you are correct.
- ogre_codes 6y ago> A lot of time, money and effort invested to support a platform whos creator is unwilling to provide support. If Linux only ran on hardware which the creator was willing to provide support, Linux would not exist. Linux was created in spite of Intel, Nvidia, AMD, etc etc. Support from the makers only came later. Linux was originally an OS created by people who wanted to do things the OEMs and commercial vendors didn't support. While it's cool that a lot of manufacturers support Linux now, that's not where we came from.
- turbinerneiter 6y agoFully agree. Sometimes the uphill battle gets tiresome tough.
- ogre_codes 6y ago> Sometimes the uphill battle gets tiresome tough. Yep. Apple hiring just one engineer and giving them access to internal resources would be massive. Or just giving them an engineering contact for support.
- wmf 6y agoMaybe you're over-interpreting "support". The x86 PC platform at least provided documentation for OS developers while Apple Silicon doesn't.
- ogre_codes 6y agoNot sure what you are getting at here. Getting Linux to run on the M1 already works... it's ARM Linux. It already runs on a VM on the M1 unmodified. I suspect we'll see Linux booting on M1 hardware within 6 months, likely less. What is going to be a much bigger struggle is getting the drivers for all the various other bits of the architecture working properly. The GPU is the biggie, but networking drivers, power management, audio drivers... the DSP, etc etc. All of the the things which are going to be difficult to get right on the M1 were an uphill battle on x86 as well. And no, Nvidia never provided documentation for their GPUs, it was a long time before we had good graphics support on Linux. Even audio drivers were a mess. Wifi modems were problematic well into the 2010s. Most hardware makers still don't document hardware features, the good ones provide binary drivers, and plenty of others rely on known interfaces so they work with older drivers.
- sergeykish 6y agoYes, but isn't same true about most of the hardware? Just a fraction of notebooks comes with Linux. I'd like to but I've never bought one. Smartphone manufacturers are not cooperative, NVIDIA got finger. Personally I would not recommend buying hardware thinking it would be supported in the future. Linux hardware acceleration for Intel GMA 500 (Poulsbo) never materialized.
- userbinator 6y agoLinux hardware acceleration for Intel GMA 500 (Poulsbo) never materialized. Ironically there is a bit of an underground effort on Chinese forums for getting acceleration on Windows 9x using the leaked SGX code and docs. I came across that a while ago when I was looking for something else, when it was still in its early stages. If you do not care about EULAs and other Imaginary Property laws, there is a whole new world to explore...
- pjmlp 6y agoJust imagine this effort being spent on improving Linux OEMs hardware offerings instead.