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I have used Python on OSX for years and it is and always will be a horrorshow. Using the system Python installation is a nonstarter for many reasons, chief amon

I have used Python on OSX for years and it is and always will be a horrorshow. Using the system Python installation is a nonstarter for many reasons, chief among them is that I don't have any interest in using py2. So then you're using pyenv or homebrew, but your vim install still thinks that it should be using the system python. And whoops, you fixed that and now virtualenv is not finding your interpreter. And etc., etc. OSX and its tooling are just ridiculous. I have no idea to this day how macs became the premier development environment. As always xkcd has a comic for it: https://xkcd.com/1987/ https://xkcd.com/1987/

jackson1442 6y ago
> I have no idea to this day how macs became the premier development environment. I've been editing a tutorial one of my coworkers wrote that targets new Python users on Windows. From my findings, the grass is not greener. Granted, geospatial Python is somewhat of a mess, but a lot of tools I have to use are somewhat messy forks of Unix tools (looking at you, pyenv-win) with tons of incompatible extensions. For development, Windows is the exception because you can transfer just about anything from Linux to macOS. On my Mac, I can easily install all of the Python packages I need without needing to install Visual Studio, pipwin, anaconda, etc. I have bash/zsh as my default system shell. Maybe it's easier to native Windows users, but bash/brew is a much better combination than anything I've found in Windows. WSL is a step in the right direction, but it still feels secondary. If a first-class terminal experience existed on Windows, I have a strong feeling that it could be the premier development environment, or at least closer to Mac. Maybe I'm using it wrong, but it definitely hasn't been made clear on how to use it right.
- analog31 6y ago
  >>>> I've been editing a tutorial one of my coworkers wrote that targets new Python users on Windows. From my findings, the grass is not greener. I've been using WinPython for a few years. It's the closest thing to "just works" that I've found, and non-programming colleagues have been able to install it successfully. Because it works almost like an isolated "container," it's also possible to test your code on a clean install of WinPython to make sure it will run on someone else's computer before you share it. I don't know the technical difference between WinPython and a true container, but you can have multiple WinPython installs on one machine, and they don't interfere with one another, or with a pre-existing mainstream Python installation on the same PC. So you can share your stuff without worrying about screwing up someone else's stuff.
  - jackson1442 6y ago
    Good to know, thank you!
- sangnoir 6y ago
  > I've been editing a tutorial one of my coworkers wrote that targets new Python users on Windows. From my findings, the grass is not greener. Maybe check the other other side (Linux) - I found the grass is greener there - at least for Python (and programming tools in general). I'm very comfortable on the command-line, and moving from a pure Linux environment to OS X & brew felt like a huge downgrade, followed by random annoyances that remind you you are using inferior, non-GNU utilities: $ ls my_dir -l ls: -l: No such directory Really - Mac OS? I know its minor, but that's just user-hostile and it happens every few weeks; I can't get over it.
  - coldtea 6y ago
    >followed by random annoyances that remind you you are using inferior, non-GNU utilities: Well, you can switch to another ls in 10 seconds by "brew install gnutools" or some such. Not to mention the same arguments could be made for FreeBSD, commercial unices, etc. Come to think of it, I've been using Unix (including Linux) for 25 years, and never even occured to me to expect "ls my_dir -l" to work.
    - mkl 6y ago
      What do you do if you want to add extra arguments when your cursor's at the end? Navigate back near (not to) the beginning? I usually just put them at the end, as almost every program I've used supports it. I add extra arguments after running commands constantly; after pressing up to get it back, you're at the end.
      - coldtea 6y ago
        >What do you do if you want to add extra arguments when your cursor's at the end? Navigate back near (not to) the beginning? Yes. In most shells it's trivial to go back by a word (e.g. skip in front of the path with one shortcut). That said, this happens so rare that it's not even something that ever registered with me as a problem. I know what arguments I want for ls. And if I don't it's usually some bizarro infrequent flag that I have to look up how it's used anyway. And other programs where it would be actually useful don't allow it anyway (having flags after the "main" argument). Git, for one.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
coldtea 6y ago
>OSX and its tooling are just ridiculous. I have no idea to this day how macs became the premier development environment. Because: (a) it's quite easy to set things up with brew, macports, and/or Nix (b) because Python is shitty everywhere anyway, and Python isn't the be-all end-all of development work. (c) because you get a full-featured, working, coherent, take-it-or-leave-it desktop that stops one way of endless tinkering and procrastinating available in Linux to get things "just right" (d) because it's still a UNIX with a full support for unicy tools, not a hack like WSL or WSL2. (e) because it has good hardware (mostly - BS keyboard-era aside) and good resale value (f) because you get to enjoy most/all the proprietary tools you like too (from MS Office and Adobe Creative Suite, to whatever) (g) because in 2020 Docker, remote environments, etc, make many "local dev environment" points moot anyway
- krona 6y ago
  b and g are mutually exclusive, though?
  - coldtea 6y ago
    Not in any logical sense (e.g. violating any Logic rule). They just cover different use cases. (b) makes the "macOS is particularly bad for development because I found Jupyter/Python deps difficult there" argument moot, as messed up Python dependencies are the case in Windows and Linux as well. And (g) says that Docker and co has superceded manually setting up Python environments for many (not necessarily all or even most) devs, mitigating concerns about managing multiple local versions different deps/libs/language versions to work with different projects (since you can now do that in different, isolated, virtual environments which are mini-OSes in themselves). So (b) basically amounts to: "It's not macOS which is makes Python deps shitty, they are inherently shitty". And (g) basically amounts to: "Since Docker and co make local development dep issues mostly obsolete, even if macOS was bad at local deps, it wouldn't matter as much today anyway as virtualization levels the field". And of course, with the field levelled by (g), if you go for virtualized dev envrironments, you still get all the other benefits like e, f, c, and d.
- ohazi 6y ago
sooheon 6y ago
> I have no idea to this day how macs became the premier development environment. s/macs/python s/development environment/scripting language

jackson1442 6y ago

> I have no idea to this day how macs became the premier development environment. I've been editing a tutorial one of my coworkers wrote that targets new Python users on Windows. From my findings, the grass is not greener. Granted, geospatial Python is somewhat of a mess, but a lot of tools I have to use are somewhat messy forks of Unix tools (looking at you, pyenv-win) with tons of incompatible extensions. For development, Windows is the exception because you can transfer just about anything from Linux to macOS. On my Mac, I can easily install all of the Python packages I need without needing to install Visual Studio, pipwin, anaconda, etc. I have bash/zsh as my default system shell. Maybe it's easier to native Windows users, but bash/brew is a much better combination than anything I've found in Windows. WSL is a step in the right direction, but it still feels secondary. If a first-class terminal experience existed on Windows, I have a strong feeling that it could be the premier development environment, or at least closer to Mac. Maybe I'm using it wrong, but it definitely hasn't been made clear on how to use it right.

analog31 6y ago
>>>> I've been editing a tutorial one of my coworkers wrote that targets new Python users on Windows. From my findings, the grass is not greener. I've been using WinPython for a few years. It's the closest thing to "just works" that I've found, and non-programming colleagues have been able to install it successfully. Because it works almost like an isolated "container," it's also possible to test your code on a clean install of WinPython to make sure it will run on someone else's computer before you share it. I don't know the technical difference between WinPython and a true container, but you can have multiple WinPython installs on one machine, and they don't interfere with one another, or with a pre-existing mainstream Python installation on the same PC. So you can share your stuff without worrying about screwing up someone else's stuff.
- jackson1442 6y ago
  Good to know, thank you!
sangnoir 6y ago
> I've been editing a tutorial one of my coworkers wrote that targets new Python users on Windows. From my findings, the grass is not greener. Maybe check the other other side (Linux) - I found the grass is greener there - at least for Python (and programming tools in general). I'm very comfortable on the command-line, and moving from a pure Linux environment to OS X & brew felt like a huge downgrade, followed by random annoyances that remind you you are using inferior, non-GNU utilities: $ ls my_dir -l ls: -l: No such directory Really - Mac OS? I know its minor, but that's just user-hostile and it happens every few weeks; I can't get over it.
- coldtea 6y ago
  >followed by random annoyances that remind you you are using inferior, non-GNU utilities: Well, you can switch to another ls in 10 seconds by "brew install gnutools" or some such. Not to mention the same arguments could be made for FreeBSD, commercial unices, etc. Come to think of it, I've been using Unix (including Linux) for 25 years, and never even occured to me to expect "ls my_dir -l" to work.
  - mkl 6y ago
    What do you do if you want to add extra arguments when your cursor's at the end? Navigate back near (not to) the beginning? I usually just put them at the end, as almost every program I've used supports it. I add extra arguments after running commands constantly; after pressing up to get it back, you're at the end.
    - coldtea 6y ago
      >What do you do if you want to add extra arguments when your cursor's at the end? Navigate back near (not to) the beginning? Yes. In most shells it's trivial to go back by a word (e.g. skip in front of the path with one shortcut). That said, this happens so rare that it's not even something that ever registered with me as a problem. I know what arguments I want for ls. And if I don't it's usually some bizarro infrequent flag that I have to look up how it's used anyway. And other programs where it would be actually useful don't allow it anyway (having flags after the "main" argument). Git, for one.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

coldtea 6y ago

>OSX and its tooling are just ridiculous. I have no idea to this day how macs became the premier development environment. Because: (a) it's quite easy to set things up with brew, macports, and/or Nix (b) because Python is shitty everywhere anyway, and Python isn't the be-all end-all of development work. (c) because you get a full-featured, working, coherent, take-it-or-leave-it desktop that stops one way of endless tinkering and procrastinating available in Linux to get things "just right" (d) because it's still a UNIX with a full support for unicy tools, not a hack like WSL or WSL2. (e) because it has good hardware (mostly - BS keyboard-era aside) and good resale value (f) because you get to enjoy most/all the proprietary tools you like too (from MS Office and Adobe Creative Suite, to whatever) (g) because in 2020 Docker, remote environments, etc, make many "local dev environment" points moot anyway

krona 6y ago
b and g are mutually exclusive, though?
- coldtea 6y ago
  Not in any logical sense (e.g. violating any Logic rule). They just cover different use cases. (b) makes the "macOS is particularly bad for development because I found Jupyter/Python deps difficult there" argument moot, as messed up Python dependencies are the case in Windows and Linux as well. And (g) says that Docker and co has superceded manually setting up Python environments for many (not necessarily all or even most) devs, mitigating concerns about managing multiple local versions different deps/libs/language versions to work with different projects (since you can now do that in different, isolated, virtual environments which are mini-OSes in themselves). So (b) basically amounts to: "It's not macOS which is makes Python deps shitty, they are inherently shitty". And (g) basically amounts to: "Since Docker and co make local development dep issues mostly obsolete, even if macOS was bad at local deps, it wouldn't matter as much today anyway as virtualization levels the field". And of course, with the field levelled by (g), if you go for virtualized dev envrironments, you still get all the other benefits like e, f, c, and d.
ohazi 6y ago

sooheon 6y ago

> I have no idea to this day how macs became the premier development environment. s/macs/python s/development environment/scripting language