4 ms·

Kind of like saying "the 49ers didn't lose, their players did"...

by jnsie 6y ago

swsieber 6y ago
No, the equivalent of this in the sports world would be fining a team some thousands of dollars for drug abuse instead of banning the offending players.
- spoonjim 6y ago
  which they should, if the drug abuse was encouraged by team leaders and rewarded with promotions/contracts.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - ska 6y ago
    are you agreeing with the "instead of" in that post? Through symmetry if a player is expelled from a league for doping, a manager who arranged/encouraged it should face the same, probably.
ogre_codes 6y ago
When Barry Bond got caught doping, nobody said "The SF Giants were doping". Barry Bond owned that. That's all I'm looking for here.
- fastball 6y ago
  But this was a collective effort that involved multiple people within the company. When "the Astros" got caught stealing signs, we say it was the Astros, even though the majority of people involved with the team were not involved with the sign-stealing.
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    You are arguing semantics (and apparently my first post focused too much on semantics). I am mostly concerned about accountability. The Astros cheating scandal resulted in: > "As a result, Astros general manager Jeff Luhnow and field manager A. J. Hinch were suspended for the entire 2020 season for failing to prevent the rules violations. The Astros were fined the maximum allowable $5 million and forfeited their first- and second-round picks in the 2020 and 2021 drafts. No players were punished because they had been given immunity by MLB in exchange for their cooperation.[1] The Astros subsequently fired both Luhnow and Hinch on the day their suspensions were announced" The individuals who made the decisions were held accountable, or at least some of them.
- naravara 6y ago
  When accountants at Enron defrauded the State of California and the SEC, we didn't say "accountants at Enron." We said "Enron" and held Enron, the entity, responsible.
  - MaysonL 6y ago
    Also the CEO, COO and CFO were sentenced to prison.
    - at-fates-hands 6y ago
      Jeffrey Skilling served 24 years in jail Andrew Fastow committed suicide Ken Lay died of a heart attack before his trial Lou Pai walked away with $250 million and disappeared The litany of charges that were brought against the rest of the people involved have not been very successful: https://www.chicagotribune.com/sns-ap-enron-trial-glance-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/sns-ap-enron-trial-glance-sto... All of those sentenced in the above article were for reduced sentences since many of them testified against Skilling and others in order to get a shorter sentence. The only one who served any real prison time was Skilling.
      - ogre_codes 6y ago
        Arguably, three people paid a heavy toll. Escaping prison because of suicide or having heart attack while waiting for your trial aren't exactly get out of jail free cards. Aside from that, totally agree. Many of the people who benefitted from the Enron disaster walked away without consequence. Very unsatisfying end.
skylanh 6y ago
Fines are issued to players, coaches, and the team depending on the severity and type of offense. Examples: Mike Tomlin fined for blocking an on-field player, the team may have been penalized by forfeiting draft picks: https://www.nfl.com/news/mike-tomlin-fined-100-000-for-actions-in-steelers-loss-0ap2000000292517 https://www.nfl.com/news/mike-tomlin-fined-100-000-for-actio... They weren't: https://www.nfl.com/news/steelers-won-t-lose-draft-pick-for-mike-tomlin-s-gaffe-0ap2000000335724 https://www.nfl.com/news/steelers-won-t-lose-draft-pick-for-... Coaches fined $100k for not wearing face masks, teams fined $250k: https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-fines-broncos-49ers-seahawks-for-violation-of-face-covering-rules https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-fines-broncos-49ers-seahawks-fo... Saints fined $500k and stripped of draft pick: https://www.nfl.com/news/saints-fined-500k-draft-pick-patriots-fined-350k-covid-19-protocol-violations https://www.nfl.com/news/saints-fined-500k-draft-pick-patrio... Controversial team fines: https://www.nfl.com/news/draft-picks-that-have-been-stripped-from-nfl-teams-since-1980-0ap3000000492229 https://www.nfl.com/news/draft-picks-that-have-been-stripped... - Falcons for fake crowd noise - Patriots for "deflategate" Saints were fined as a team, head coach suspended, players suspended for "bounty gate": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans_Saints_bounty_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans_Saints_bounty_scan... Team sports can be lost by a player, but must be won as a team. E.g. Kyle Williams of SF 49ers muffing two punts in the 2012-Feb-22 game against the Giants (off his knee, and the strip).

Kind of like saying "the 49ers didn't lose, their players did"...

by jnsie 6y ago

Kind of like saying "the 49ers didn't lose, their players did"...

No, the equivalent of this in the sports world would be fining a team some thousands of dollars for drug abuse instead of banning the offending players.

spoonjim 6y ago
which they should, if the drug abuse was encouraged by team leaders and rewarded with promotions/contracts.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- ska 6y ago
  are you agreeing with the "instead of" in that post? Through symmetry if a player is expelled from a league for doping, a manager who arranged/encouraged it should face the same, probably.

ogre_codes 6y ago

When Barry Bond got caught doping, nobody said "The SF Giants were doping". Barry Bond owned that. That's all I'm looking for here.

fastball 6y ago
But this was a collective effort that involved multiple people within the company. When "the Astros" got caught stealing signs, we say it was the Astros, even though the majority of people involved with the team were not involved with the sign-stealing.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  You are arguing semantics (and apparently my first post focused too much on semantics). I am mostly concerned about accountability. The Astros cheating scandal resulted in: > "As a result, Astros general manager Jeff Luhnow and field manager A. J. Hinch were suspended for the entire 2020 season for failing to prevent the rules violations. The Astros were fined the maximum allowable $5 million and forfeited their first- and second-round picks in the 2020 and 2021 drafts. No players were punished because they had been given immunity by MLB in exchange for their cooperation.[1] The Astros subsequently fired both Luhnow and Hinch on the day their suspensions were announced" The individuals who made the decisions were held accountable, or at least some of them.
naravara 6y ago
When accountants at Enron defrauded the State of California and the SEC, we didn't say "accountants at Enron." We said "Enron" and held Enron, the entity, responsible.
- MaysonL 6y ago
  Also the CEO, COO and CFO were sentenced to prison.
  - at-fates-hands 6y ago
    Jeffrey Skilling served 24 years in jail Andrew Fastow committed suicide Ken Lay died of a heart attack before his trial Lou Pai walked away with $250 million and disappeared The litany of charges that were brought against the rest of the people involved have not been very successful: https://www.chicagotribune.com/sns-ap-enron-trial-glance-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/sns-ap-enron-trial-glance-sto... All of those sentenced in the above article were for reduced sentences since many of them testified against Skilling and others in order to get a shorter sentence. The only one who served any real prison time was Skilling.
    - ogre_codes 6y ago
      Arguably, three people paid a heavy toll. Escaping prison because of suicide or having heart attack while waiting for your trial aren't exactly get out of jail free cards. Aside from that, totally agree. Many of the people who benefitted from the Enron disaster walked away without consequence. Very unsatisfying end.

skylanh 6y ago

Fines are issued to players, coaches, and the team depending on the severity and type of offense. Examples: Mike Tomlin fined for blocking an on-field player, the team may have been penalized by forfeiting draft picks: https://www.nfl.com/news/mike-tomlin-fined-100-000-for-actions-in-steelers-loss-0ap2000000292517 https://www.nfl.com/news/mike-tomlin-fined-100-000-for-actio... They weren't: https://www.nfl.com/news/steelers-won-t-lose-draft-pick-for-mike-tomlin-s-gaffe-0ap2000000335724 https://www.nfl.com/news/steelers-won-t-lose-draft-pick-for-... Coaches fined $100k for not wearing face masks, teams fined $250k: https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-fines-broncos-49ers-seahawks-for-violation-of-face-covering-rules https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-fines-broncos-49ers-seahawks-fo... Saints fined $500k and stripped of draft pick: https://www.nfl.com/news/saints-fined-500k-draft-pick-patriots-fined-350k-covid-19-protocol-violations https://www.nfl.com/news/saints-fined-500k-draft-pick-patrio... Controversial team fines: https://www.nfl.com/news/draft-picks-that-have-been-stripped-from-nfl-teams-since-1980-0ap3000000492229 https://www.nfl.com/news/draft-picks-that-have-been-stripped... - Falcons for fake crowd noise - Patriots for "deflategate" Saints were fined as a team, head coach suspended, players suspended for "bounty gate": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans_Saints_bounty_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans_Saints_bounty_scan... Team sports can be lost by a player, but must be won as a team. E.g. Kyle Williams of SF 49ers muffing two punts in the 2012-Feb-22 game against the Giants (off his knee, and the strip).