5 ms·

> Remember: what our bodies consider "early" is dependent on when the sun rises, and not the numbers we put on our clocks. I'm sure there's a contribution, but

by avalys 6y ago

> Remember: what our bodies consider "early" is dependent on when the sun rises, and not the numbers we put on our clocks. I'm sure there's a contribution, but obviously the effect is small given that the length of the day varies by ~6 hours throughout the year, for pretty much all the US? And we all sit inside all day in artificial lighting anyway? Kids don't give a shit about walking to school in the dark. I know, as someone who was recently a kid and resented winter "daylight wasting time", I would much rather have had more hours of daylight in the afternoon when I was finished with school and could actually do fun stuff outside, rather than useless daylight in the morning while I'm sitting on the bus or in a classroom at 7:30 AM. And as an adult I feel the same about work.

TheGoddessInari 6y ago
People forget how cold it is an hour earlier in the middle of winter in most of the US.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- jjk166 6y ago
  Schools and buses and workplaces are heated.
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    You have to wait for the bus outside. And a lot of children in the US still have to either walk to school, or walk to a school bus stop (which isn't their house).
    - jjk166 6y ago
      Wait inside for the bus Heat the bus stop Drive kids to the bus stop Move bus stop to a more convenient location Wear appropriate clothing for being outside in the winter. There are a lot of ways to limit a few people being cold besides shifting all of society to a suboptimal schedule, and it's not like it's balmy an hour later anyways.
      - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
        > Wait inside for the bus > Drive kids to the bus stop If this were possible, they would already be doing it. It isn't going to be so simple for a lot of families. > Heat the bus stop > Move bus stop to a more convenient location But that requires money. If a permanent DST bill included measures (and a budget) for "helping municipalities accommodate children commuting to school before sunrise," I think I might be more willing to get behind that. But if it wasn't in the bill, I think we both know it wouldn't happen. Not in this country and political climate.
        jjk166 6y ago
        > If this were possible, they would already be doing it Unless the effort of doing so isn't currently worth it but would be under the new circumstances. Further, many already do this. Combined with moving bus stops to more convenient locations (ie closer to people's homes) and it's easy to imagine this satisfying the vast majority of people. > But that requires money. Having a motor vehicle drive up the street to the pedestrian rather than having the pedestrian walk down the street is a pen-stroke away. It was one thing 50 years ago when the route had to be determined by a random guy with a paper map to keep it simple, but nowadays forcing kids to go long distances to get to a bus stop is inexcusable. As for heating bus stops, a 1500W space heater is $50. Assuming it's on for 1 hour per day, 120 days per year, it'll use $20 worth of electricity. Assuming 2 kids per bus stop, that's 29 cents per day per student the first year and 8 cents per student per year subsequently. You only need to do this for a small subset of students who have long wait times at a bus stop and no reasonable alternative. Even if you had to provide it for every single student, that cost would be about 0.2% of the current average education budget allocation per student for the first year and less than 0.1% for subsequent years. Even if you wanted to go really fancy and add a solar power system to the bus stops to power the space heaters, you're still looking at less than $5 per student per day to pay it off in one year. Again, these or any one of the other countless methods humans have devised for solving this problem make a lot more sense than pretending the sun rises earlier.
runarberg 6y ago
You are right, kids don’t give a shit about walking to school in the dark. They don’t give a shit about eating tons of sugar either, it doesn’t mean either healthy though. You have to be aware that there are social reasons for why people—including kids—stay up later. Moving the clock to a permanent DST might move social activities with it and ultimately cost a significant portion of the population a healthy sleep cycle.
Wowfunhappy 6y ago
> Kids don't give a shit about walking to school in the dark. I know, as someone who was recently a kid and resented winter "daylight wasting time", I would much rather have had more hours of daylight in the afternoon when I was finished with school and could actually do fun stuff outside, rather than useless daylight in the morning while I'm sitting on the bus or in a classroom at 7:30 AM. And as an adult I feel the same about work. I was actually thinking of "walking to school in the dark" as a safety issue. You and I probably live in safe communities, but not everyone does. And, sadly, the same communities that have more crime are frequently the ones less able to afford services like school buses. But I also think a lot of kids and adults don't actually want what they think they do with regard to DST. Having more daylight in the evening seems appealing, and it's what I wanted when I was younger—but then I was in a situation where I had to get up an hour earlier in the winter. It's not fun.

by avalys 6y ago

TheGoddessInari 6y ago

People forget how cold it is an hour earlier in the middle of winter in most of the US.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jjk166 6y ago
Schools and buses and workplaces are heated.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  You have to wait for the bus outside. And a lot of children in the US still have to either walk to school, or walk to a school bus stop (which isn't their house).
  - jjk166 6y ago
    Wait inside for the bus Heat the bus stop Drive kids to the bus stop Move bus stop to a more convenient location Wear appropriate clothing for being outside in the winter. There are a lot of ways to limit a few people being cold besides shifting all of society to a suboptimal schedule, and it's not like it's balmy an hour later anyways.
    - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
      > Wait inside for the bus > Drive kids to the bus stop If this were possible, they would already be doing it. It isn't going to be so simple for a lot of families. > Heat the bus stop > Move bus stop to a more convenient location But that requires money. If a permanent DST bill included measures (and a budget) for "helping municipalities accommodate children commuting to school before sunrise," I think I might be more willing to get behind that. But if it wasn't in the bill, I think we both know it wouldn't happen. Not in this country and political climate.
      - jjk166 6y ago
        > If this were possible, they would already be doing it Unless the effort of doing so isn't currently worth it but would be under the new circumstances. Further, many already do this. Combined with moving bus stops to more convenient locations (ie closer to people's homes) and it's easy to imagine this satisfying the vast majority of people. > But that requires money. Having a motor vehicle drive up the street to the pedestrian rather than having the pedestrian walk down the street is a pen-stroke away. It was one thing 50 years ago when the route had to be determined by a random guy with a paper map to keep it simple, but nowadays forcing kids to go long distances to get to a bus stop is inexcusable. As for heating bus stops, a 1500W space heater is $50. Assuming it's on for 1 hour per day, 120 days per year, it'll use $20 worth of electricity. Assuming 2 kids per bus stop, that's 29 cents per day per student the first year and 8 cents per student per year subsequently. You only need to do this for a small subset of students who have long wait times at a bus stop and no reasonable alternative. Even if you had to provide it for every single student, that cost would be about 0.2% of the current average education budget allocation per student for the first year and less than 0.1% for subsequent years. Even if you wanted to go really fancy and add a solar power system to the bus stops to power the space heaters, you're still looking at less than $5 per student per day to pay it off in one year. Again, these or any one of the other countless methods humans have devised for solving this problem make a lot more sense than pretending the sun rises earlier.

runarberg 6y ago

You are right, kids don’t give a shit about walking to school in the dark. They don’t give a shit about eating tons of sugar either, it doesn’t mean either healthy though. You have to be aware that there are social reasons for why people—including kids—stay up later. Moving the clock to a permanent DST might move social activities with it and ultimately cost a significant portion of the population a healthy sleep cycle.

Wowfunhappy 6y ago

> Kids don't give a shit about walking to school in the dark. I know, as someone who was recently a kid and resented winter "daylight wasting time", I would much rather have had more hours of daylight in the afternoon when I was finished with school and could actually do fun stuff outside, rather than useless daylight in the morning while I'm sitting on the bus or in a classroom at 7:30 AM. And as an adult I feel the same about work. I was actually thinking of "walking to school in the dark" as a safety issue. You and I probably live in safe communities, but not everyone does. And, sadly, the same communities that have more crime are frequently the ones less able to afford services like school buses. But I also think a lot of kids and adults don't actually want what they think they do with regard to DST. Having more daylight in the evening seems appealing, and it's what I wanted when I was younger—but then I was in a situation where I had to get up an hour earlier in the winter. It's not fun.