5 ms·

Making DST permanent effectively shifts all of the U.S. one timezone eastward (so EDT = UTC+4, PDT = UTC+7, instead of +5 and +8 for their standard time equival

Making DST permanent effectively shifts all of the U.S. one timezone eastward (so EDT = UTC+4, PDT = UTC+7, instead of +5 and +8 for their standard time equivalents). People seem to prefer the earlier timezone (which gives extra daylight in the evening at the expense of the morning), and it also makes collaboration with Europe a bit easier.

kibwen 6y ago
I certainly prefer it, but I think it's too soon to say that "people" prefer it, unless you are aware of some kind of public poll that asked the question.
- Abfrage 6y ago
  The European Union had a poll: https://www.dw.com/en/eu-to-stop-changing-the-clocks-juncker-pledges/a-45300586 https://www.dw.com/en/eu-to-stop-changing-the-clocks-juncker...
- maxerickson 6y ago
  There's a lot of variation based on what part of time zones people live in (and how far north they are). Here we have a month where daylight isn't a whole lot better than 8:00-5:00, so it's always amusing to hear people say that they like it to be daylight when they wake up (so 1.5 hours less sun here than San Francisco today, which is where the last person I saw with that complaint lives).
- SllX 6y ago
  California voted on it in a manner which was a ballot initiative but functionally served as a poll. The text authorized the State legislature to make the change if Congress passed a law allowing the State to make the change. It passed.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  WA/OR/CA are set to go DST permanently as soon as the federal government allows them to. Wonder where all the states’ rights small government politicians are.
  - philwelch 6y ago
    That would be roughly equivalent to merging the Pacific and Mountain time zones and abolishing DST in WA/OR/CA. Which I also like. We can call it the Western time zone.
  - crumpled 6y ago
    I don't understand the sentiment. The reason we're set to follow the federal standard is because we voted for it on a ballot measure. (CA) So we're obviously exercising states rights. I will say, however, that the ballot measure was confused by the arguments, with both sides arguing against time changes.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_7,_Legislative_Power_to_Change_Daylight_Saving_Time_Measure_(2018) https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_7,_Legislativ... >Proposition 12 (1949), a ballot initiative that established DST in California, needed to be repealed. In California, a ballot initiative cannot be repealed without the consent of voters. Therefore, the state legislature could not take action to change time policy unless voters approved Proposition 7. This applied to both permanent daylight savings time and permanent standard time.[1] As I understand, Prop 7 was needed to undo Prop 12, which then gave the CA state legislature the power to go with DST all year around, which they have indicated they want to since 2016: >In 2016, the California State Legislature asked the President and Congress to pass an act that would allow California to adopt year-round DST.[2] It seems that it's the federal government preventing the states from doing what they want to do, hence my quip about states' rights.
- toast0 6y ago
  As someone else posted, there's been several passed initiatives about moving to permanent DST; and no passed initiatives (that I'm aware of) about moving to permanent standard time. I would prefer standard time, but I'll accept any time as long as days are always 86400 seconds (+/- 1 second). I'm willing to have a separate discussion about leap seconds, but that seems like it's being determined by concensus among national standards bodies, not democratic action, so I have less influence.
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    Frankly, I just think people are wrong about this. It's surprisingly difficult to mentally think through what "moving time" really means. Having more sunlight in the evening seems good, but people forget that means you're effectively waking up earlier (where "earlier" is relative to the internal clock which is set by the sun, which we can't change).
globular-toast 6y ago
Until Europe also switches to DST permanently, which will almost certainly happen if the US does it. I reckon if any developed country does it then all others would follow within a few years at most. I hate that it's permanent DST, though. Why make noon at one hour past the sun at its highest point? So annoying.
- maxerickson 6y ago
  Solar noon here is at 1:50 during DST and never much earlier than 12:50.
- CogitoCogito 6y ago
  > I hate that it's permanent DST, though. Why make noon at one hour past the sun at its highest point? So annoying. I have a friend that is also annoyed by this prospect, but I never could understand why. I mean I can see why people have opinions based on morning/evening light, but is "high noon should be noon" really that big a deal? I mean even if the center of every timezone had high noon set at noon, you'd still end up having the edges of the same timezone having their high noon closer to 11:30 and 12:30. The fact is that local times have had their high noon disassociated from 12:00 for quite a while. Other than the principle of the thing, I just don't see why having around 1:00 really is such a bother. edit: I really can't understand why you're being downvoted. Your frustration shouldn't be ignored.
  - globular-toast 6y ago
    Your argument is that it doesn't matter. So in that case why not pick the one that actually makes sense according to the motion of the solar system? If I have to make a choice between two equally logical solutions, I always pick the most beautiful or most symmetrical. Why not?
    - CogitoCogito 6y ago
      > Your argument is that it doesn't matter. Never did I argue that it does not matter. In fact I didn't even take a position on the matter. I specifically asked _you_ about _your_ beliefs. > So in that case why not pick the one that actually makes sense according to the motion of the solar system? If I have to make a choice between two equally logical solutions, I always pick the most beautiful or most symmetrical. Why not? Why not? As I pointed out, there are other considerations at play like morning/evening light. You apparently believe that the balance of beauty and symmetry with the solar system is the most important consideration. I don't personally consider that very important.

kibwen 6y ago

I certainly prefer it, but I think it's too soon to say that "people" prefer it, unless you are aware of some kind of public poll that asked the question.

Abfrage 6y ago
The European Union had a poll: https://www.dw.com/en/eu-to-stop-changing-the-clocks-juncker-pledges/a-45300586 https://www.dw.com/en/eu-to-stop-changing-the-clocks-juncker...
maxerickson 6y ago
There's a lot of variation based on what part of time zones people live in (and how far north they are). Here we have a month where daylight isn't a whole lot better than 8:00-5:00, so it's always amusing to hear people say that they like it to be daylight when they wake up (so 1.5 hours less sun here than San Francisco today, which is where the last person I saw with that complaint lives).
SllX 6y ago
California voted on it in a manner which was a ballot initiative but functionally served as a poll. The text authorized the State legislature to make the change if Congress passed a law allowing the State to make the change. It passed.
lotsofpulp 6y ago
WA/OR/CA are set to go DST permanently as soon as the federal government allows them to. Wonder where all the states’ rights small government politicians are.
- philwelch 6y ago
  That would be roughly equivalent to merging the Pacific and Mountain time zones and abolishing DST in WA/OR/CA. Which I also like. We can call it the Western time zone.
- crumpled 6y ago
  I don't understand the sentiment. The reason we're set to follow the federal standard is because we voted for it on a ballot measure. (CA) So we're obviously exercising states rights. I will say, however, that the ballot measure was confused by the arguments, with both sides arguing against time changes.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_7,_Legislative_Power_to_Change_Daylight_Saving_Time_Measure_(2018) https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_7,_Legislativ... >Proposition 12 (1949), a ballot initiative that established DST in California, needed to be repealed. In California, a ballot initiative cannot be repealed without the consent of voters. Therefore, the state legislature could not take action to change time policy unless voters approved Proposition 7. This applied to both permanent daylight savings time and permanent standard time.[1] As I understand, Prop 7 was needed to undo Prop 12, which then gave the CA state legislature the power to go with DST all year around, which they have indicated they want to since 2016: >In 2016, the California State Legislature asked the President and Congress to pass an act that would allow California to adopt year-round DST.[2] It seems that it's the federal government preventing the states from doing what they want to do, hence my quip about states' rights.
toast0 6y ago
As someone else posted, there's been several passed initiatives about moving to permanent DST; and no passed initiatives (that I'm aware of) about moving to permanent standard time. I would prefer standard time, but I'll accept any time as long as days are always 86400 seconds (+/- 1 second). I'm willing to have a separate discussion about leap seconds, but that seems like it's being determined by concensus among national standards bodies, not democratic action, so I have less influence.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  Frankly, I just think people are wrong about this. It's surprisingly difficult to mentally think through what "moving time" really means. Having more sunlight in the evening seems good, but people forget that means you're effectively waking up earlier (where "earlier" is relative to the internal clock which is set by the sun, which we can't change).

globular-toast 6y ago

Until Europe also switches to DST permanently, which will almost certainly happen if the US does it. I reckon if any developed country does it then all others would follow within a few years at most. I hate that it's permanent DST, though. Why make noon at one hour past the sun at its highest point? So annoying.

maxerickson 6y ago
Solar noon here is at 1:50 during DST and never much earlier than 12:50.
CogitoCogito 6y ago
> I hate that it's permanent DST, though. Why make noon at one hour past the sun at its highest point? So annoying. I have a friend that is also annoyed by this prospect, but I never could understand why. I mean I can see why people have opinions based on morning/evening light, but is "high noon should be noon" really that big a deal? I mean even if the center of every timezone had high noon set at noon, you'd still end up having the edges of the same timezone having their high noon closer to 11:30 and 12:30. The fact is that local times have had their high noon disassociated from 12:00 for quite a while. Other than the principle of the thing, I just don't see why having around 1:00 really is such a bother. edit: I really can't understand why you're being downvoted. Your frustration shouldn't be ignored.
- globular-toast 6y ago
  Your argument is that it doesn't matter. So in that case why not pick the one that actually makes sense according to the motion of the solar system? If I have to make a choice between two equally logical solutions, I always pick the most beautiful or most symmetrical. Why not?
  - CogitoCogito 6y ago
    > Your argument is that it doesn't matter. Never did I argue that it does not matter. In fact I didn't even take a position on the matter. I specifically asked _you_ about _your_ beliefs. > So in that case why not pick the one that actually makes sense according to the motion of the solar system? If I have to make a choice between two equally logical solutions, I always pick the most beautiful or most symmetrical. Why not? Why not? As I pointed out, there are other considerations at play like morning/evening light. You apparently believe that the balance of beauty and symmetry with the solar system is the most important consideration. I don't personally consider that very important.