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>Should we allow a free market to continue producing vehicles that contribute to the degradation of the planet? That's not my argument. It would be a good thin

>Should we allow a free market to continue producing vehicles that contribute to the degradation of the planet? That's not my argument. It would be a good thing if all governments outlawed ICE consumer vehicles. However, headlines like this are portraying Norway as some kind of progressive utopia where everyone just wants to drive EVs. Obviously you can make people do whatever you want with aggressive enough tax policies. But the goal should be to get EVs to a fair market price point where they truly compete, not reliant on subsidies.

mattmoose21 6y ago
The headline doesn't seem misleading. I would also argue that the government giving out incentives for electric cars makes Norway "some kind of progressive utopia" as it is a republic and I assume it is in someway what the people want.
arve0 6y ago
Kia niro comes out the same price, electric sells the most. Hybrid 405k NOK [0] Electric 415k NOK [1] 0: https://www.kia.com/api/bin/docDownload?program=brochure&locale=no&path=%2Fcontent%2Fdam%2Fkwcms%2Fkme%2Fno%2Fnn%2Fassets%2Fprislister-brosjyrer%2F20-12-04%2F2021-Kia-Norge-Niro_hybrid(DE)_PE-kundeprisliste-August20-26-08-2020.pdf https://www.kia.com/api/bin/docDownload?program=brochure&loc... 1: https://www.kia.com/api/bin/docDownload?program=brochure&locale=no&path=%2Fcontent%2Fdam%2Fkwcms%2Fkme%2Fno%2Fnn%2Fassets%2Fprislister-brosjyrer%2F20-12-04%2F2021-Kia-Norge-e-Niro(DE)_PE-kundeprisliste-July20-31-07-2020.pdf https://www.kia.com/api/bin/docDownload?program=brochure&loc...
- 1stcity3rdcoast 6y ago
  There are significant subsidies and schemes that the Norwegian government offers that reduces the total purchase price of the electric.
  - arve0 6y ago
    Yes, that is correct. But the argument is, «electric cheaper -> sells more». My argument is that the people of Norway wants electric, when priced the same. Electric is the new shiny that most people in Norway want.
    - 1stcity3rdcoast 6y ago
      But they're not priced the same. The MSRP is just the MSRP and does not include the incentives for EVs.
      - arve0 6y ago
        They are priced the same, I’ve bought this car to this price. The MSRP includes no sale tax (mva) and no horse power tax. Are you thinking of some other incentives?
        1stcity3rdcoast 6y ago
        The retail price is the same, sure, but the effective price is much different because the incentives come from different tax and rebate schemes that aren't factored into the retail price. EVs have no VAT in Norway, no road tax, no toll or ferry fees [0] -- that's a major difference in the effective price! [0] https://elbil.no/english/norwegian-ev-policy/ https://elbil.no/english/norwegian-ev-policy/
        arve0 6y ago
        Sorry, thought you meant “initial” total purchasing price, if that makes sense. Road tax is back, this year. No ferry fee is only on Europe roads. No toll fee still. Also service cost is probably cheaper, as electric has less failing motor parts, not sure about the battery though.
- aphextron 6y ago
  >Kia niro comes out the same price, electric sells the most. That's my whole point. Of course more people will choose an EV when they are at price parity. The problem is that they are not. The Niro EV sells for a ~40% premium in the US over the ICE version, because the government subsidies are far less.
allendoerfer 6y ago
> However, headlines like this are portraying Norway as some kind of progressive utopia where everyone just wants to drive EVs. Headlines like this are portraying Norway as some kind of progressive democracy, where the majority wants to have laws to drive up EV sales.
- 411111111111111 6y ago
  > the majority wants to have laws to drive up EV sales It's a representative democracy, so it's the voted–in government officials instead of the majority of people ;) The difference does matter, because the cause and effect is inverted: the government is elected... And now it passes laws such as this. It's not the population that voted so the government would pass these laws.
erterbest 6y ago
Subsidies can contribute to grow the market enough for that to happen, though. Ability to scale, test new models, gather experiences et cetera.
kingnothing 6y ago
ICE cars rely on subsidies, why shouldn't EVs? The US federal government subsidizes $20B per year towards fossil fuels across oil, gas, and coal. The EU subsidizes €55B per year towards fossil fuels. https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subsidies-a-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subs...
- hcurtiss 6y ago
  This all depends on your definition of "subsidy." https://www.forbes.com/sites/drillinginfo/2016/02/22/debunking-myths-about-federal-oil-gas-subsidies/?sh=37fb151b6e1c https://www.forbes.com/sites/drillinginfo/2016/02/22/debunki...
  - kingnothing 6y ago
    That article was written by Drilling Info and reads like a lobbying piece. Here's some info on that company: Drilling Info has more than 2,700 accounts globally with more than 20,000 users. Drilling Info members produce more than 90 percent of domestic oil and gas in the United States. They're in the oil and gas business -- of course they want to "debunk" any info about the subsidies given to that industry.
    - kingnothing 6y ago
      I'll take one point from that article as an example of BS: "Intangible Drilling Costs ($3.5 billion “subsidy” – low estimate is $780 million) - Intangible Drilling Costs are essentially the cost of drilling a new well that have no salvageable value. Currently, most exploration companies are allowed to deduct 100% of the costs in the year they are incurred with the majors able to deduct 70% of the costs immediately with the remaining 30% amortized over 5 years. In what world would money spent that may or may not be recovered be capitalized as an asset?" Plenty of companies spend plenty of money on R&D every year that goes nowhere. For some reason, the oil & gas industry gets a refund on their exploration but other companies don't. I work in R&D in tech -- should the government fund my complete salary for projects that turn out to not be viable? Sounds great if you're an entrepreneur -- start all the companies you want and get refunded by the government for all of your misses.

mattmoose21 6y ago

The headline doesn't seem misleading. I would also argue that the government giving out incentives for electric cars makes Norway "some kind of progressive utopia" as it is a republic and I assume it is in someway what the people want.

arve0 6y ago

Kia niro comes out the same price, electric sells the most. Hybrid 405k NOK [0] Electric 415k NOK [1] 0: https://www.kia.com/api/bin/docDownload?program=brochure&locale=no&path=%2Fcontent%2Fdam%2Fkwcms%2Fkme%2Fno%2Fnn%2Fassets%2Fprislister-brosjyrer%2F20-12-04%2F2021-Kia-Norge-Niro_hybrid(DE)_PE-kundeprisliste-August20-26-08-2020.pdf https://www.kia.com/api/bin/docDownload?program=brochure&loc... 1: https://www.kia.com/api/bin/docDownload?program=brochure&locale=no&path=%2Fcontent%2Fdam%2Fkwcms%2Fkme%2Fno%2Fnn%2Fassets%2Fprislister-brosjyrer%2F20-12-04%2F2021-Kia-Norge-e-Niro(DE)_PE-kundeprisliste-July20-31-07-2020.pdf https://www.kia.com/api/bin/docDownload?program=brochure&loc...

1stcity3rdcoast 6y ago
There are significant subsidies and schemes that the Norwegian government offers that reduces the total purchase price of the electric.
- arve0 6y ago
  Yes, that is correct. But the argument is, «electric cheaper -> sells more». My argument is that the people of Norway wants electric, when priced the same. Electric is the new shiny that most people in Norway want.
  - 1stcity3rdcoast 6y ago
    But they're not priced the same. The MSRP is just the MSRP and does not include the incentives for EVs.
    - arve0 6y ago
      They are priced the same, I’ve bought this car to this price. The MSRP includes no sale tax (mva) and no horse power tax. Are you thinking of some other incentives?
      - 1stcity3rdcoast 6y ago
        The retail price is the same, sure, but the effective price is much different because the incentives come from different tax and rebate schemes that aren't factored into the retail price. EVs have no VAT in Norway, no road tax, no toll or ferry fees [0] -- that's a major difference in the effective price! [0] https://elbil.no/english/norwegian-ev-policy/ https://elbil.no/english/norwegian-ev-policy/
        arve0 6y ago
        Sorry, thought you meant “initial” total purchasing price, if that makes sense. Road tax is back, this year. No ferry fee is only on Europe roads. No toll fee still. Also service cost is probably cheaper, as electric has less failing motor parts, not sure about the battery though.
aphextron 6y ago
>Kia niro comes out the same price, electric sells the most. That's my whole point. Of course more people will choose an EV when they are at price parity. The problem is that they are not. The Niro EV sells for a ~40% premium in the US over the ICE version, because the government subsidies are far less.

allendoerfer 6y ago

> However, headlines like this are portraying Norway as some kind of progressive utopia where everyone just wants to drive EVs. Headlines like this are portraying Norway as some kind of progressive democracy, where the majority wants to have laws to drive up EV sales.

411111111111111 6y ago
> the majority wants to have laws to drive up EV sales It's a representative democracy, so it's the voted–in government officials instead of the majority of people ;) The difference does matter, because the cause and effect is inverted: the government is elected... And now it passes laws such as this. It's not the population that voted so the government would pass these laws.

erterbest 6y ago

Subsidies can contribute to grow the market enough for that to happen, though. Ability to scale, test new models, gather experiences et cetera.

kingnothing 6y ago

ICE cars rely on subsidies, why shouldn't EVs? The US federal government subsidizes $20B per year towards fossil fuels across oil, gas, and coal. The EU subsidizes €55B per year towards fossil fuels. https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subsidies-a-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subs...

hcurtiss 6y ago
This all depends on your definition of "subsidy." https://www.forbes.com/sites/drillinginfo/2016/02/22/debunking-myths-about-federal-oil-gas-subsidies/?sh=37fb151b6e1c https://www.forbes.com/sites/drillinginfo/2016/02/22/debunki...
- kingnothing 6y ago
  That article was written by Drilling Info and reads like a lobbying piece. Here's some info on that company: Drilling Info has more than 2,700 accounts globally with more than 20,000 users. Drilling Info members produce more than 90 percent of domestic oil and gas in the United States. They're in the oil and gas business -- of course they want to "debunk" any info about the subsidies given to that industry.
  - kingnothing 6y ago
    I'll take one point from that article as an example of BS: "Intangible Drilling Costs ($3.5 billion “subsidy” – low estimate is $780 million) - Intangible Drilling Costs are essentially the cost of drilling a new well that have no salvageable value. Currently, most exploration companies are allowed to deduct 100% of the costs in the year they are incurred with the majors able to deduct 70% of the costs immediately with the remaining 30% amortized over 5 years. In what world would money spent that may or may not be recovered be capitalized as an asset?" Plenty of companies spend plenty of money on R&D every year that goes nowhere. For some reason, the oil & gas industry gets a refund on their exploration but other companies don't. I work in R&D in tech -- should the government fund my complete salary for projects that turn out to not be viable? Sounds great if you're an entrepreneur -- start all the companies you want and get refunded by the government for all of your misses.