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This is almost completely a result of artificial government imposed constraints that make ICE vehicles exceedingly more expensive there. It really has nothing t
by aphextron 6y ago
This is almost completely a result of artificial government imposed constraints that make ICE vehicles exceedingly more expensive there. It really has nothing to do with free market choice. A new Tesla Model 3 costs less than a Subaru Outback or Mini Cooper [0]. A VW eGolf also costs less than a base model ICE Golf.
[0] https://www.skatteetaten.no/globalassets/tabeller-og-satser/listepris-bil/bilpriserpersonbil2019.pdf https://www.skatteetaten.no/globalassets/tabeller-og-satser/...
- unethical_ban 6y agoShould we allow a free market to continue producing vehicles that contribute to the degradation of the planet?
- aphextron 6y ago>Should we allow a free market to continue producing vehicles that contribute to the degradation of the planet? That's not my argument. It would be a good thing if all governments outlawed ICE consumer vehicles. However, headlines like this are portraying Norway as some kind of progressive utopia where everyone just wants to drive EVs. Obviously you can make people do whatever you want with aggressive enough tax policies. But the goal should be to get EVs to a fair market price point where they truly compete, not reliant on subsidies.
- mattmoose21 6y agoThe headline doesn't seem misleading. I would also argue that the government giving out incentives for electric cars makes Norway "some kind of progressive utopia" as it is a republic and I assume it is in someway what the people want.
- arve0 6y agoKia niro comes out the same price, electric sells the most. Hybrid 405k NOK [0] Electric 415k NOK [1] 0: https://www.kia.com/api/bin/docDownload?program=brochure&locale=no&path=%2Fcontent%2Fdam%2Fkwcms%2Fkme%2Fno%2Fnn%2Fassets%2Fprislister-brosjyrer%2F20-12-04%2F2021-Kia-Norge-Niro_hybrid(DE)_PE-kundeprisliste-August20-26-08-2020.pdf https://www.kia.com/api/bin/docDownload?program=brochure&loc... 1: https://www.kia.com/api/bin/docDownload?program=brochure&locale=no&path=%2Fcontent%2Fdam%2Fkwcms%2Fkme%2Fno%2Fnn%2Fassets%2Fprislister-brosjyrer%2F20-12-04%2F2021-Kia-Norge-e-Niro(DE)_PE-kundeprisliste-July20-31-07-2020.pdf https://www.kia.com/api/bin/docDownload?program=brochure&loc...
- 1stcity3rdcoast 6y agoThere are significant subsidies and schemes that the Norwegian government offers that reduces the total purchase price of the electric.
- arve0 6y agoYes, that is correct. But the argument is, «electric cheaper -> sells more». My argument is that the people of Norway wants electric, when priced the same. Electric is the new shiny that most people in Norway want.
- 1stcity3rdcoast 6y agoBut they're not priced the same. The MSRP is just the MSRP and does not include the incentives for EVs.
- arve0 6y agoThey are priced the same, I’ve bought this car to this price. The MSRP includes no sale tax (mva) and no horse power tax. Are you thinking of some other incentives?
- 1stcity3rdcoast 6y agoThe retail price is the same, sure, but the effective price is much different because the incentives come from different tax and rebate schemes that aren't factored into the retail price. EVs have no VAT in Norway, no road tax, no toll or ferry fees [0] -- that's a major difference in the effective price! [0] https://elbil.no/english/norwegian-ev-policy/ https://elbil.no/english/norwegian-ev-policy/
- arve0 6y agoSorry, thought you meant “initial” total purchasing price, if that makes sense. Road tax is back, this year. No ferry fee is only on Europe roads. No toll fee still. Also service cost is probably cheaper, as electric has less failing motor parts, not sure about the battery though.
- allendoerfer 6y ago> However, headlines like this are portraying Norway as some kind of progressive utopia where everyone just wants to drive EVs. Headlines like this are portraying Norway as some kind of progressive democracy, where the majority wants to have laws to drive up EV sales.
- 411111111111111 6y ago> the majority wants to have laws to drive up EV sales It's a representative democracy, so it's the voted–in government officials instead of the majority of people ;) The difference does matter, because the cause and effect is inverted: the government is elected... And now it passes laws such as this. It's not the population that voted so the government would pass these laws.
- erterbest 6y agoSubsidies can contribute to grow the market enough for that to happen, though. Ability to scale, test new models, gather experiences et cetera.
- kingnothing 6y agoICE cars rely on subsidies, why shouldn't EVs? The US federal government subsidizes $20B per year towards fossil fuels across oil, gas, and coal. The EU subsidizes €55B per year towards fossil fuels. https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subsidies-a-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subs...
- hcurtiss 6y agoThis all depends on your definition of "subsidy." https://www.forbes.com/sites/drillinginfo/2016/02/22/debunking-myths-about-federal-oil-gas-subsidies/?sh=37fb151b6e1c https://www.forbes.com/sites/drillinginfo/2016/02/22/debunki...
- kingnothing 6y agoThat article was written by Drilling Info and reads like a lobbying piece. Here's some info on that company: Drilling Info has more than 2,700 accounts globally with more than 20,000 users. Drilling Info members produce more than 90 percent of domestic oil and gas in the United States. They're in the oil and gas business -- of course they want to "debunk" any info about the subsidies given to that industry.
- kingnothing 6y agoI'll take one point from that article as an example of BS: "Intangible Drilling Costs ($3.5 billion “subsidy” – low estimate is $780 million) - Intangible Drilling Costs are essentially the cost of drilling a new well that have no salvageable value. Currently, most exploration companies are allowed to deduct 100% of the costs in the year they are incurred with the majors able to deduct 70% of the costs immediately with the remaining 30% amortized over 5 years. In what world would money spent that may or may not be recovered be capitalized as an asset?" Plenty of companies spend plenty of money on R&D every year that goes nowhere. For some reason, the oil & gas industry gets a refund on their exploration but other companies don't. I work in R&D in tech -- should the government fund my complete salary for projects that turn out to not be viable? Sounds great if you're an entrepreneur -- start all the companies you want and get refunded by the government for all of your misses.
- J-dawg 6y agoCan we not pretend that electric cars don't pollute the planet? To be clear, I am a big fan of electric cars. But this seems to have become another one of those things that has become so polarised you're not even allowed to express healthy skepticism.
- unethical_ban 6y agoICE vehicles have very little headroom for "environmental growth" whereas electric seems to have very high levels of headroom. Batteries from more common elements, better recycling, more renewable energy to charge them. As much as I love big trucks, there is no "zero carbon diesel". So it isn't pretending, they really are a lot better for the planet in the mid-term and forward.
- J-dawg 6y agoI agree with most of what you said. Also, the fact that EVs produce almost zero local pollution makes them incredibly compelling. So much so that I'd still be in favour of them even if they produced the same amount of CO2 overall. Just to make it clear which "team" I am on. I'm just pointing out that the EV debate seems to have become one of those things where people pick a side and then stop accepting any nuance. The comment I originally replied to was making the typical glib lazy assertion that ICE cars are some terrible medieval technology and EVs are all sunshine and rainbows. It's more complicated than that.
- dschuler 6y ago> there is no "zero carbon diesel". There is, it’s called biodiesel. It’s certainly possible to be net zero carbon with synthetic fuels.
- CydeWeys 6y agoAnd it's insanely expensive and thus not ever going to be remotely economically feasible. The only reason it might falsely appear to be so now is because it is heavily subsidized (way more heavily subsidized than EVs are).
- arve0 6y agoAre you comparing a large car, Subaru Outback, to a small car, Model 3? Model X would be a fairer comparison, where model X is 300k NOK more in base model.