6 ms·

Indeed, the $2k example was misleading, but the fact it's still $800 for a phone with 2014 specs alone would have been more than enough to get his point across.

Indeed, the $2k example was misleading, but the fact it's still $800 for a phone with 2014 specs alone would have been more than enough to get his point across. You do have to pay 3-4x the price you would otherwise to get the privilege of running another OS on older hardware with arguably less functionality (OOTB, at least).

fsflover 6y ago
Librem 5 provides features which no other phone provides. Simple specs comparison does not show the whole picture. See FAQ: https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Frequently-Asked-Questions#14-do-the-specs-justify-paying-599-799-for-the-librem-5 https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Freque.... Edit: Also, why do you need a better performance? Browsing and 3D games work fine.
- folkrav 6y ago
  Again, those "selling points" are extremely fringe. Let's not pretend like grandma (and the average phone user) cares about hardware killswitches, DP over USB-C, etc... Like they say themselves in that very article you posted : > For people who want these specialized features that no other phone offers, the Librem 5's price is not unreasonable. Also, specs are obviously not the only thing that matters, but having seen Librem 5 phones run, it's pretty damn obvious they do kind of matter - the thing seems to run quite choppy.
  - fsflover 6y ago
    That is why I asked why grandma would need a performance of iPhone 12. Native apps work quite smoothly on Librem 5 (and many of them even on Pinephone). Choppiness of the UI is not caused by the hardware specs, but by not yet fully optimized software. See here: https://social.librem.one/@dos/104984930233748319 https://social.librem.one/@dos/104984930233748319
    - folkrav 6y ago
      I mean, just take a look at their own damn videos. [1] The thing runs choppy and had horrible input lag just typing the lockscreen passcode or opening the dialer. I don't expect my mom to need iPhone 12 performance, but even my mom told me her older LG G-something was slow getting slow, and having played with it before her switching phones, it wasn't nearly as choppy looking as this video. You and I obviously have very different definitions of "quite smoothly". And specs related or not, UI is a major part of the experience. The initial point still stands: Linux phones are pretty damn far from being anywhere viable for anyone but the most hardcore enthusiasts. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qimtzxMyfq0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qimtzxMyfq0
      - fsflover 6y ago
        See my edit above: it's not the issue with the hardware but with software. Check out more recent videos from them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIFWZZ2YVqI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIFWZZ2YVqI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAUNrY_qPCg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAUNrY_qPCg
        folkrav 6y ago
        It does look quite a bit snappier indeed, but as I said in my previous comment as well: > specs related or not, UI is a major part of the experience When someone buys a phone (or hell, a computer), they're buying a package of hardware, which dictates available software. Hell, you could make some hypothetical $200 phone with the best hardware on the market, if it doesn't have what some people consider "basic" functionality software side, they won't buy... coming back to the initial point that Linux phones are not ready for prime time.
        fsflover 6y ago
        Fair enough. Some people prefer to buy early and get all software updates on the way though (with lifetime updates btw). It's also FLOSS, so everyone can contribute.
danShumway 6y ago
Is that unreasonable? Running another OS on a device with physical hardware switches is a privilege right now, so it costs more. There are essentially two companies doing this, and neither of them are even at the point where they can completely honestly say their products are out of beta. The Librem is expensive in no small part because its feature list is fringe, and even ignoring the inherent hardware challenges that's just how the law of supply and demand works. What other market have you seen that acts differently? Look at how much other niche devices like Braille screens cost, or even more "mainstream" specialized hardware like the Remarkable Tablet -- arguably a much less capable E-Reader than a Kindle/Kobo device by almost all consumer-relevant metrics. But you'll pay more for stylus support on an E-ink screen if you need that, and you'll tolerate a suboptimal reading experience as well. It's also important not to ignore the fact that the Librem is a flagship device. It is currently the most powerful Linux phone hardware on the market. So you can buy a cheap, low-powered Pinephone (the far better choice for most tinkerers), or you can shell out for something with more raw power -- which is also pretty consistent with how most markets work. If you want to buy the single top-of-the-line Wacom tablet, you'll shell out at least $4,000, probably more when you factor in accessories. You want rotational support in the pen? That's another $100. Is the fractional improvement in a Cintiq Pro 'worth' the frankly massive price increase over consumer tablets? Probably not, you can buy an entire Surface Studio for the same price, and that comes with a "free" computer. But you'll pay the Cintiq price if you belong to a niche that needs the best the market currently has to offer for your particular use-case. And you'll pay the Librem price if you belong to a niche that needs the (currently) most powerful phone hardware that's realistically usable with a Linux OS.
- fsflover 6y ago
  Don't forget that Purism also pays for the software development, while Pine64 uses that software for free (10 euro donations per sold Pinephone do not cut it).
- unix_fan 6y ago
  These days, a braille display can be had for around $400-$600. We also have multiple manufacturers, with multiple models and prices you can choose from. I don’t see that happening with open source hardware.

fsflover 6y ago

Librem 5 provides features which no other phone provides. Simple specs comparison does not show the whole picture. See FAQ: https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Frequently-Asked-Questions#14-do-the-specs-justify-paying-599-799-for-the-librem-5 https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Freque.... Edit: Also, why do you need a better performance? Browsing and 3D games work fine.

folkrav 6y ago
Again, those "selling points" are extremely fringe. Let's not pretend like grandma (and the average phone user) cares about hardware killswitches, DP over USB-C, etc... Like they say themselves in that very article you posted : > For people who want these specialized features that no other phone offers, the Librem 5's price is not unreasonable. Also, specs are obviously not the only thing that matters, but having seen Librem 5 phones run, it's pretty damn obvious they do kind of matter - the thing seems to run quite choppy.
- fsflover 6y ago
  That is why I asked why grandma would need a performance of iPhone 12. Native apps work quite smoothly on Librem 5 (and many of them even on Pinephone). Choppiness of the UI is not caused by the hardware specs, but by not yet fully optimized software. See here: https://social.librem.one/@dos/104984930233748319 https://social.librem.one/@dos/104984930233748319
  - folkrav 6y ago
    I mean, just take a look at their own damn videos. [1] The thing runs choppy and had horrible input lag just typing the lockscreen passcode or opening the dialer. I don't expect my mom to need iPhone 12 performance, but even my mom told me her older LG G-something was slow getting slow, and having played with it before her switching phones, it wasn't nearly as choppy looking as this video. You and I obviously have very different definitions of "quite smoothly". And specs related or not, UI is a major part of the experience. The initial point still stands: Linux phones are pretty damn far from being anywhere viable for anyone but the most hardcore enthusiasts. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qimtzxMyfq0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qimtzxMyfq0
    - fsflover 6y ago
      See my edit above: it's not the issue with the hardware but with software. Check out more recent videos from them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIFWZZ2YVqI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIFWZZ2YVqI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAUNrY_qPCg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAUNrY_qPCg
      - folkrav 6y ago
        It does look quite a bit snappier indeed, but as I said in my previous comment as well: > specs related or not, UI is a major part of the experience When someone buys a phone (or hell, a computer), they're buying a package of hardware, which dictates available software. Hell, you could make some hypothetical $200 phone with the best hardware on the market, if it doesn't have what some people consider "basic" functionality software side, they won't buy... coming back to the initial point that Linux phones are not ready for prime time.
        fsflover 6y ago
        Fair enough. Some people prefer to buy early and get all software updates on the way though (with lifetime updates btw). It's also FLOSS, so everyone can contribute.

danShumway 6y ago

Is that unreasonable? Running another OS on a device with physical hardware switches is a privilege right now, so it costs more. There are essentially two companies doing this, and neither of them are even at the point where they can completely honestly say their products are out of beta. The Librem is expensive in no small part because its feature list is fringe, and even ignoring the inherent hardware challenges that's just how the law of supply and demand works. What other market have you seen that acts differently? Look at how much other niche devices like Braille screens cost, or even more "mainstream" specialized hardware like the Remarkable Tablet -- arguably a much less capable E-Reader than a Kindle/Kobo device by almost all consumer-relevant metrics. But you'll pay more for stylus support on an E-ink screen if you need that, and you'll tolerate a suboptimal reading experience as well. It's also important not to ignore the fact that the Librem is a flagship device. It is currently the most powerful Linux phone hardware on the market. So you can buy a cheap, low-powered Pinephone (the far better choice for most tinkerers), or you can shell out for something with more raw power -- which is also pretty consistent with how most markets work. If you want to buy the single top-of-the-line Wacom tablet, you'll shell out at least $4,000, probably more when you factor in accessories. You want rotational support in the pen? That's another $100. Is the fractional improvement in a Cintiq Pro 'worth' the frankly massive price increase over consumer tablets? Probably not, you can buy an entire Surface Studio for the same price, and that comes with a "free" computer. But you'll pay the Cintiq price if you belong to a niche that needs the best the market currently has to offer for your particular use-case. And you'll pay the Librem price if you belong to a niche that needs the (currently) most powerful phone hardware that's realistically usable with a Linux OS.

fsflover 6y ago
Don't forget that Purism also pays for the software development, while Pine64 uses that software for free (10 euro donations per sold Pinephone do not cut it).
unix_fan 6y ago
These days, a braille display can be had for around $400-$600. We also have multiple manufacturers, with multiple models and prices you can choose from. I don’t see that happening with open source hardware.