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The top 33 "software and programming" companies by revenue in the world can be found below [0]. 28 of them are American. Two are in the EU. One is in the UK. On

The top 33 "software and programming" companies by revenue in the world can be found below [0]. 28 of them are American. Two are in the EU. One is in the UK. One is in Australia. The last is Russian. One of the companies in the EU produces enterprise software almost no one on this website uses (SAP). The other is Dassault. In the US the top five companies are Microsoft, Oracle, ADP, Adobe, and Salesforce. If you include Alphabet and Amazon, well... When the EU or Asia (non-China, I guess) can offer mature alternatives even remotely competitive with the American companies, I guess your strategy could work. Until then, no one is going to flock to Hetzner over AWS. And I like Hetzner. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_software_companies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_software_c...

Erlich_Bachman 6y ago
> One of the companies in the EU produces enterprise software almost no one on this website uses (SAP) What? SAP is a huge software that is used in a lot of companies.
- icelancer 6y ago
  Correct. I'm also willing to bet the people on Hacker News are not typically in the circle of businesses that use SAP.
  - Closi 6y ago
    I'm willing to bet that they are. Do you think there is a huge tendency towards Oracle, Infor or MS Dynamics rather than SAP across hacker news, or are you just assuming that people who go on hacker news aren't in the 'circle of companies' which need an ERP? Most people on HN probably go work for companies that pay them the best compensation or offer them a good position, not based on what ERP they chose.
  - dtech 6y ago
    You underestimate the reach of SAP and overestimate the "SV-ness" of HN.
  - kuriho 6y ago
    SAP Developer/Customer here. Does that mean most people on HN work for companies either too small for or too competent to outsource an ERP system?
  - hasa 6y ago
    SAP user here... not that I liked it :)
- kavalg 6y ago
  Also, you should take into account that SAP the company is not just the ERP. It has acquired several big SaaS vendors in the past years (Ariba, SuccessFactors, Concur etc) so many of us may be touching SAP without even realizing it.
tpoacher 6y ago
Both you and the person you replied to are right. They are not mutually exclusive points. Famous example: MS Windows having a marketshare of 96% should not necessarily stop you from designing your business around linux.
- icelancer 6y ago
  Sure they are. Propose an EU or non-Chinese Asian alternative to AWS that is, say, 80% as efficient/effective. If that's not possible, then choosing AWS for your startup/scaling business is not the stupidest move you can make, assuming AWS fits your use case. "MS Windows having a marketshare of 96% should not necessarily stop you from designing your business around linux" But Windows doesn't have this kind of marketshare in most areas going forward? The #1 OS used worldwide is AndroidOS and no one is clamoring to write for it as far as I can tell.
  - tpoacher 6y ago
    I think you're missing the point. It's less a question of "can you find an alternative that is at least 80% as efficient", and more a question of "is this 20% bump in efficiency worth the liability risk". Your opinion is 'yes'. OP's opinion is 'no'. Both are valid opinions and highly depend on the nature of your business. But, OP's somewhat un-american sentiment aside (which I believe is mostly what you're reacting to, rather than the general nature of their argument), I agree that erring on the side of caution and minimizing external liabilities should be on the top of the agenda for any company. And this is aside from the whole "support local infrastructure and don't empower monopolies further" argument.
    - fennecfoxen 6y ago
      Maximizing the risk-adjusted returns on the business is the top of the agenda. Sometimes this means shedding risk, particularly at well established companies; sometimes this means embracing it, particularly at younger ones. If you don’t have revenue yet there’s little need to protect it.
    - EdwinLarkin 6y ago
jojobas 6y ago
You can use many of the products from the companies in the list (i.e. SAP, Adobe or Oracle) without risking all your data in a Kafkaesque ploy of sorts. If you keep everything your business is at Amazon you better be prepared to Amazon booting you.
fnord123 6y ago
>Until then, no one is going to flock to Hetzner over AWS. You don't need the market to flock to Hetzner or OVH to use it yourself and avoid US sanctions.
bildung 6y ago
While the US sure is dominant, there are dozens of software companies larger than those in that list, e.g. Zoho has about $5B revenue, Baidu $11B, Tencent $23B, Accenture $41B, ... The list employs some particular filters (e.g. SaaS seems to be excluded) and heavily emphasizes market cap over revenue.
- namdnay 6y ago
  I wouldn't consider Accenture a large software company. They do a lot of software "consultancy" (ie bodyshopping), but the nature of the consulting game plus their decentralized architecture (I've worked with Accenture, and the relationship between their different offices seems to be closer to co-franchisees than colleagues) means I wouldn't consider it a "big software company" (as in lots of people working on the same system/architecture
  - mdoms 6y ago
    Yup they're not a big software company if you arbitrarily constrain the definition of software company. I could argue Google is not a big software company (as in lots of people working with mismatching socks and propeller hats). But that would be just as stupid.
    - namdnay 6y ago
      What I mean is that the overwhelming majority of Accenture (or TCS, or Deloitte, or IBM Consulting, or Infosys, or any other bodyshop) employees aren’t building software for Accenture, they’re being hired out. So that’s why I don’t consider Accenture a “software” company Would you consider Randstad to be a building company? They loan out hundreds of thousands of building contractors across the world
  - icelancer 6y ago
    It doesn't matter anyway. Accenture is also an American company despite being incorporated in Ireland.
- icelancer 6y ago
madsbuch 6y ago
I think you are conflating marked share with quality of offering. Indeed there are viable local options for many of these things. Heck, the reason why European companies have so little relative marked share, is because they serve smaller, domestic, markets. A Danish webshop provider probably has a better offering for a webshop for servicing the Danish market. It probably has better support for Danish accounting, better locale support etc.
- MattGaiser 6y ago
  Do Danes have unique server needs compared to the rest of the world?
  - harperlee 6y ago
    Don’t strawman the parent post, they have already generalized US service dependency beyond OP, and there are already examples of local needs above: > It probably has better support for Danish accounting, better locale support
  - madsbuch 6y ago
    That's an issue for the webshop service provider ;)
  - tdy721 6y ago
    Yes, they speak Danish.
    - cutemonster 6y ago
      And Danish laws and Danish accounting systems and Danish gov agencies to maybe integrate with, etc (Maybe more relevant for SaaS than servers though)
literallycancer 6y ago
There are often subsidiaries that offer the same services, except everything is done in the EU, data storage, support, etc. Of course the US still has access because of compromised infra, but at least it's illegal now.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

Erlich_Bachman 6y ago

> One of the companies in the EU produces enterprise software almost no one on this website uses (SAP) What? SAP is a huge software that is used in a lot of companies.

icelancer 6y ago
Correct. I'm also willing to bet the people on Hacker News are not typically in the circle of businesses that use SAP.
- Closi 6y ago
  I'm willing to bet that they are. Do you think there is a huge tendency towards Oracle, Infor or MS Dynamics rather than SAP across hacker news, or are you just assuming that people who go on hacker news aren't in the 'circle of companies' which need an ERP? Most people on HN probably go work for companies that pay them the best compensation or offer them a good position, not based on what ERP they chose.
- dtech 6y ago
  You underestimate the reach of SAP and overestimate the "SV-ness" of HN.
- kuriho 6y ago
  SAP Developer/Customer here. Does that mean most people on HN work for companies either too small for or too competent to outsource an ERP system?
- hasa 6y ago
  SAP user here... not that I liked it :)
kavalg 6y ago
Also, you should take into account that SAP the company is not just the ERP. It has acquired several big SaaS vendors in the past years (Ariba, SuccessFactors, Concur etc) so many of us may be touching SAP without even realizing it.

tpoacher 6y ago

Both you and the person you replied to are right. They are not mutually exclusive points. Famous example: MS Windows having a marketshare of 96% should not necessarily stop you from designing your business around linux.

icelancer 6y ago
Sure they are. Propose an EU or non-Chinese Asian alternative to AWS that is, say, 80% as efficient/effective. If that's not possible, then choosing AWS for your startup/scaling business is not the stupidest move you can make, assuming AWS fits your use case. "MS Windows having a marketshare of 96% should not necessarily stop you from designing your business around linux" But Windows doesn't have this kind of marketshare in most areas going forward? The #1 OS used worldwide is AndroidOS and no one is clamoring to write for it as far as I can tell.
- tpoacher 6y ago
  I think you're missing the point. It's less a question of "can you find an alternative that is at least 80% as efficient", and more a question of "is this 20% bump in efficiency worth the liability risk". Your opinion is 'yes'. OP's opinion is 'no'. Both are valid opinions and highly depend on the nature of your business. But, OP's somewhat un-american sentiment aside (which I believe is mostly what you're reacting to, rather than the general nature of their argument), I agree that erring on the side of caution and minimizing external liabilities should be on the top of the agenda for any company. And this is aside from the whole "support local infrastructure and don't empower monopolies further" argument.
  - fennecfoxen 6y ago
    Maximizing the risk-adjusted returns on the business is the top of the agenda. Sometimes this means shedding risk, particularly at well established companies; sometimes this means embracing it, particularly at younger ones. If you don’t have revenue yet there’s little need to protect it.
  - EdwinLarkin 6y ago

jojobas 6y ago

You can use many of the products from the companies in the list (i.e. SAP, Adobe or Oracle) without risking all your data in a Kafkaesque ploy of sorts. If you keep everything your business is at Amazon you better be prepared to Amazon booting you.

fnord123 6y ago

>Until then, no one is going to flock to Hetzner over AWS. You don't need the market to flock to Hetzner or OVH to use it yourself and avoid US sanctions.

bildung 6y ago

While the US sure is dominant, there are dozens of software companies larger than those in that list, e.g. Zoho has about $5B revenue, Baidu $11B, Tencent $23B, Accenture $41B, ... The list employs some particular filters (e.g. SaaS seems to be excluded) and heavily emphasizes market cap over revenue.

namdnay 6y ago
I wouldn't consider Accenture a large software company. They do a lot of software "consultancy" (ie bodyshopping), but the nature of the consulting game plus their decentralized architecture (I've worked with Accenture, and the relationship between their different offices seems to be closer to co-franchisees than colleagues) means I wouldn't consider it a "big software company" (as in lots of people working on the same system/architecture
- mdoms 6y ago
  Yup they're not a big software company if you arbitrarily constrain the definition of software company. I could argue Google is not a big software company (as in lots of people working with mismatching socks and propeller hats). But that would be just as stupid.
  - namdnay 6y ago
    What I mean is that the overwhelming majority of Accenture (or TCS, or Deloitte, or IBM Consulting, or Infosys, or any other bodyshop) employees aren’t building software for Accenture, they’re being hired out. So that’s why I don’t consider Accenture a “software” company Would you consider Randstad to be a building company? They loan out hundreds of thousands of building contractors across the world
- icelancer 6y ago
  It doesn't matter anyway. Accenture is also an American company despite being incorporated in Ireland.
icelancer 6y ago

madsbuch 6y ago

I think you are conflating marked share with quality of offering. Indeed there are viable local options for many of these things. Heck, the reason why European companies have so little relative marked share, is because they serve smaller, domestic, markets. A Danish webshop provider probably has a better offering for a webshop for servicing the Danish market. It probably has better support for Danish accounting, better locale support etc.

MattGaiser 6y ago
Do Danes have unique server needs compared to the rest of the world?
- harperlee 6y ago
  Don’t strawman the parent post, they have already generalized US service dependency beyond OP, and there are already examples of local needs above: > It probably has better support for Danish accounting, better locale support
- madsbuch 6y ago
  That's an issue for the webshop service provider ;)
- tdy721 6y ago
  Yes, they speak Danish.
  - cutemonster 6y ago
    And Danish laws and Danish accounting systems and Danish gov agencies to maybe integrate with, etc (Maybe more relevant for SaaS than servers though)

literallycancer 6y ago

There are often subsidiaries that offer the same services, except everything is done in the EU, data storage, support, etc. Of course the US still has access because of compromised infra, but at least it's illegal now.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]