4 ms·

In this case convenience trumps freedom, it seems. I find Richard Stallman's arguments against what he calls the "Swindle" being defective by design, and taking

by mahrain 15y ago

In this case convenience trumps freedom, it seems. I find Richard Stallman's arguments against what he calls the "Swindle" being defective by design, and taking essential freedoms away from readers, such as the ability to buy a book anonymously using cash, lending a book to friends and keeping it as long as you want. Would it be that my first statement is true, or are consumers just not aware of this?

thalur 15y ago
I can only speak for myself, but the arguments you list aren't things I would really consider at the time of purchase: I've never yet wanted to buy a book anonymously using cash, though I won't rule out wanting to do so in the future; the lack of/limited lending is a concern, but if the cost of the book is low (e.g. ~£1 like a lot of self-pub books are) then I would be happy to buy a copy instead of borrow one, and if I'm buying a book (of any sort) the lending potential of that book doesn't figure into my decision at all anyway.
simonsarris 15y ago
That's like trying to compare the freedom of a car vs the freedom of a bicycle. It's not "taking away freedoms" if you buy The Catcher in the Rye Kindle Edition vs Print Edition It's purchasing a completely different thing. They have the same end, a lot of the time. You end up reading The Catcher in the Rye. One is cheaper and is easier to travel with, the other you can lend to your friends a lot easier. One dies if batteries die, the other gets warped pages. One can be taken into the bathtub with just a zip-loc bag to protect it, the other runs the risk of getting rippled pages. So it gives the "freedom" of being able to travel with ~500 books instead of 4, gives the freedom of easier bathtub reading, takes away the freedom of lending to friends, etc. It is simply a different product.
- samlevine 15y ago
  From a practical perspective it doesn't take away any freedom. I try to avoid buying any ebooks I can't get DRM free copies of in case the DRM scheme they use changes or goes away and requires me to purchase a new license. Obviously I could just use the free copy to begin with but it wouldn't send any information to the people that make such books that I want more of them. Also the QA on such books can be a little light and format shifting them is a hassle I do if need be but would rather avoid.
- Kadin 15y ago
  I don't think consumers are totally unaware of it. (Edit: Meant to be in response to http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2564228 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2564228) I've had people (generally older, nontechnical types, but who aren't about to just trust that Amazon will be around forever) ask me whether it's possible to strip the DRM off of Amazon books. They may not know the term "DRM", but they understand it functionally and that it's a disadvantage. Unfortunately the de-DRMing tools are a little too complex and have too many rough edges for this audience, right now. (Although there's a Mac version that wraps most of the de-DRM scripts for Nook/Kindle/Adobe in a drag-and-drop GUI that is pretty clever.) I hope that developers of those sort of tools will keep ease-of-use by nontechnical people in mind in their development. Once you have the ability to strip the DRM and put the ebook file away in a safe place, you really have a product that is better in nearly all respects.
warmfuzzykitten 15y ago
Actually, you can lend Kindle books. Paying cash is a "freedom" consumers give up willingly in every area of life. Why can't you keep a Kindle book as long as you want? Bit rot? I might add that consumers also give up the freedom to cut down trees to make paper, wait for physical delivery, have piles of books clutter up the house and periodically haul them away. I think they actually are aware of these.

by mahrain 15y ago

thalur 15y ago

I can only speak for myself, but the arguments you list aren't things I would really consider at the time of purchase: I've never yet wanted to buy a book anonymously using cash, though I won't rule out wanting to do so in the future; the lack of/limited lending is a concern, but if the cost of the book is low (e.g. ~£1 like a lot of self-pub books are) then I would be happy to buy a copy instead of borrow one, and if I'm buying a book (of any sort) the lending potential of that book doesn't figure into my decision at all anyway.

simonsarris 15y ago

That's like trying to compare the freedom of a car vs the freedom of a bicycle. It's not "taking away freedoms" if you buy The Catcher in the Rye Kindle Edition vs Print Edition It's purchasing a completely different thing. They have the same end, a lot of the time. You end up reading The Catcher in the Rye. One is cheaper and is easier to travel with, the other you can lend to your friends a lot easier. One dies if batteries die, the other gets warped pages. One can be taken into the bathtub with just a zip-loc bag to protect it, the other runs the risk of getting rippled pages. So it gives the "freedom" of being able to travel with ~500 books instead of 4, gives the freedom of easier bathtub reading, takes away the freedom of lending to friends, etc. It is simply a different product.

samlevine 15y ago
From a practical perspective it doesn't take away any freedom. I try to avoid buying any ebooks I can't get DRM free copies of in case the DRM scheme they use changes or goes away and requires me to purchase a new license. Obviously I could just use the free copy to begin with but it wouldn't send any information to the people that make such books that I want more of them. Also the QA on such books can be a little light and format shifting them is a hassle I do if need be but would rather avoid.
Kadin 15y ago
I don't think consumers are totally unaware of it. (Edit: Meant to be in response to http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2564228 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2564228) I've had people (generally older, nontechnical types, but who aren't about to just trust that Amazon will be around forever) ask me whether it's possible to strip the DRM off of Amazon books. They may not know the term "DRM", but they understand it functionally and that it's a disadvantage. Unfortunately the de-DRMing tools are a little too complex and have too many rough edges for this audience, right now. (Although there's a Mac version that wraps most of the de-DRM scripts for Nook/Kindle/Adobe in a drag-and-drop GUI that is pretty clever.) I hope that developers of those sort of tools will keep ease-of-use by nontechnical people in mind in their development. Once you have the ability to strip the DRM and put the ebook file away in a safe place, you really have a product that is better in nearly all respects.

warmfuzzykitten 15y ago

Actually, you can lend Kindle books. Paying cash is a "freedom" consumers give up willingly in every area of life. Why can't you keep a Kindle book as long as you want? Bit rot? I might add that consumers also give up the freedom to cut down trees to make paper, wait for physical delivery, have piles of books clutter up the house and periodically haul them away. I think they actually are aware of these.