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No one is denying that independent contractors deserve dignity and stability. Imposing a forced employment framework violates the dignity of non-full time contr

No one is denying that independent contractors deserve dignity and stability. Imposing a forced employment framework violates the dignity of non-full time contractors who want a side income to supplement their normal job. This discussion also should account for the benefit to society of having safe and low cost transportation and delivery options, which raises the dignity of many people who otherwise could not afford the rates of for example taxis. Living wage is a mutable concept and is determined in large part by where you live and how many children you have. Wages for a job are based on a fair market rate within reasonable bounds, like minimum wage. Raising minimum wage too high has adverse effects on job availability.

ndespres 6y ago
This is a story about a grocery store chain replacing their own employees who perform a job at the company, with "independent contractors" from a 3rd-party service. I'm not sure what case you're trying to make, whose dignity are you saying is violated? Who said anything about taxis? Why are you arguing to me against raising minimum wage, when all I said was that people deserve a living wage?
- isoskeles 6y ago
  > Why are you arguing to me against raising minimum wage, when all I said was that people deserve a living wage? Well, you said: > why can we not agree that the people who do the job deserve to be compensated with a living wage and deserve dignity and stability? How do you propose that a person doing a "job" earn a "living wage" without making changes to the minimum wage? I sense much more of an argumentative tone to your comments than the person you're replying to, by the way.
  - ndespres 6y ago
    As others have said in this thread and in many other places, the minimum wage does not really correspond to the wage required to live a comfortable and dignified life. It is merely the least amount of money an employer can pay an employee without it being illegal, and has very little to do with the cost of living. If I seem argumentative, it is because I am exasperated with the gymnastics that people will do in order to justify the conscription of more and more people into precarious existences under a gig economy, which largely benefits people at the top of the economic ladder at the expense of those at the bottom.
    - s1artibartfast 6y ago
      If you are for a comfortable living wage, how do you propose it is ensured without a minimum wage at some, to be specified, level?
- julienb_sea 6y ago
  I'm a bit late in answering. I brought up the decentralization and deregulation of taxi transport (via Uber / Lyft) because I believe the impacts - significantly lowering cost and improving availability of transportation - are a net societal benefit, despite reduced wage stability. This improves public safety, creates incentives against drunk driving, creates affordable alternatives to lengthy public transit rides. Grocery delivery is a similar case - for many, reducing the cost and improving availability of grocery delivery is a significant benefit. Instead of being the domain of the wealthy, it is massively more available to the average person. "Living wage" is used to argue that people are owed wages higher than the market would actually pay. Lots of jobs pay vastly higher than living wages - not for fun, but because the supply of workers is more scarce and the economic output of the job is higher. Minimum wage is how we as a society have defined a floor for what is an acceptable job, which I think is intimately associated with the construct of a living wage.
cjohnson318 6y ago
Minimum wage is not based on a fair market, within reasonable bounds. I remember when minimum wage went from $5.15 to $6.25 in Louisiana in 2008, it's now $7.25 in Louisiana. You could get a lot more in 2000 for $5.15, than you can in 2020 for $7.25, and Louisiana is one of the cheapest places in the US to live.

ndespres 6y ago

This is a story about a grocery store chain replacing their own employees who perform a job at the company, with "independent contractors" from a 3rd-party service. I'm not sure what case you're trying to make, whose dignity are you saying is violated? Who said anything about taxis? Why are you arguing to me against raising minimum wage, when all I said was that people deserve a living wage?

isoskeles 6y ago
> Why are you arguing to me against raising minimum wage, when all I said was that people deserve a living wage? Well, you said: > why can we not agree that the people who do the job deserve to be compensated with a living wage and deserve dignity and stability? How do you propose that a person doing a "job" earn a "living wage" without making changes to the minimum wage? I sense much more of an argumentative tone to your comments than the person you're replying to, by the way.
- ndespres 6y ago
  As others have said in this thread and in many other places, the minimum wage does not really correspond to the wage required to live a comfortable and dignified life. It is merely the least amount of money an employer can pay an employee without it being illegal, and has very little to do with the cost of living. If I seem argumentative, it is because I am exasperated with the gymnastics that people will do in order to justify the conscription of more and more people into precarious existences under a gig economy, which largely benefits people at the top of the economic ladder at the expense of those at the bottom.
  - s1artibartfast 6y ago
    If you are for a comfortable living wage, how do you propose it is ensured without a minimum wage at some, to be specified, level?
julienb_sea 6y ago
I'm a bit late in answering. I brought up the decentralization and deregulation of taxi transport (via Uber / Lyft) because I believe the impacts - significantly lowering cost and improving availability of transportation - are a net societal benefit, despite reduced wage stability. This improves public safety, creates incentives against drunk driving, creates affordable alternatives to lengthy public transit rides. Grocery delivery is a similar case - for many, reducing the cost and improving availability of grocery delivery is a significant benefit. Instead of being the domain of the wealthy, it is massively more available to the average person. "Living wage" is used to argue that people are owed wages higher than the market would actually pay. Lots of jobs pay vastly higher than living wages - not for fun, but because the supply of workers is more scarce and the economic output of the job is higher. Minimum wage is how we as a society have defined a floor for what is an acceptable job, which I think is intimately associated with the construct of a living wage.

cjohnson318 6y ago

Minimum wage is not based on a fair market, within reasonable bounds. I remember when minimum wage went from $5.15 to $6.25 in Louisiana in 2008, it's now $7.25 in Louisiana. You could get a lot more in 2000 for $5.15, than you can in 2020 for $7.25, and Louisiana is one of the cheapest places in the US to live.