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Yeah but that's another point totally. I still don't think that allowing only those with money to criticize our government is something to be proud of.

leesalminen 6y ago
No, you missed the point. In the US, everyone can criticize the government and the rich can break many laws. In China, nobody can criticize the government and the rich can break most laws. The only difference is that nobody in China can criticize the government. Rich people can break many/most laws in just about every country on earth. That’s universal. Do you understand now?
- simlevesque 6y ago
  > The only difference is that nobody in China can criticize the government. In contrast to here in America where only some of us can criticize the government. How is that supposed to help me ?
  - leesalminen 6y ago
    You’re still missing what I’m saying. Anyone in the US can legally and publicly criticize any level of our government without fear of reprisal. In almost all cases.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > Anyone in the US can legally and publicly criticize any level of our government without fear of reprisal. Both the internal statements by violent right-wing counter-demonstrators about widespread expectation of police tacit support without need for direct coordination that came to light and the actual police behavior toward violent right-wing counter-demonstrators in many cases during the recent BLM protests demonstrate that that certainly isn't true in substantial, recently-salient cases.
      - leesalminen 6y ago
        It is what we aspire to, though. Sure, we’re not perfect. Nobody is.
        dragonwriter 6y ago
        > It is what we aspire to, though It's obviously not what some of “us” in positions of power aspire to. I'm sure there are people whose decisions aren't reflected in the outcomes in China who prefer the CCP not repress dissent, too. Unrealized aspirations aren't the measure of freedom of a regime. (Sure, the US is better than the PRC when it comes to tolerating dissent. But it is not free of political repression.)
dragonwriter 6y ago
> I still don’t think that allowing only those with money to criticize our government is something to be proud of. reply You generally don’t have to be rich to criticize the government in the US (without punishment; being rich may be necessary to get heard, though, but that’s a different problem); on the issues where the government at any level will retaliate, directly or indirectly, for criticism, wealth isn't really all that effective in stopping it, either.

leesalminen 6y ago

No, you missed the point. In the US, everyone can criticize the government and the rich can break many laws. In China, nobody can criticize the government and the rich can break most laws. The only difference is that nobody in China can criticize the government. Rich people can break many/most laws in just about every country on earth. That’s universal. Do you understand now?

simlevesque 6y ago
> The only difference is that nobody in China can criticize the government. In contrast to here in America where only some of us can criticize the government. How is that supposed to help me ?
- leesalminen 6y ago
  You’re still missing what I’m saying. Anyone in the US can legally and publicly criticize any level of our government without fear of reprisal. In almost all cases.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > Anyone in the US can legally and publicly criticize any level of our government without fear of reprisal. Both the internal statements by violent right-wing counter-demonstrators about widespread expectation of police tacit support without need for direct coordination that came to light and the actual police behavior toward violent right-wing counter-demonstrators in many cases during the recent BLM protests demonstrate that that certainly isn't true in substantial, recently-salient cases.
    - leesalminen 6y ago
      It is what we aspire to, though. Sure, we’re not perfect. Nobody is.
      - dragonwriter 6y ago
        > It is what we aspire to, though It's obviously not what some of “us” in positions of power aspire to. I'm sure there are people whose decisions aren't reflected in the outcomes in China who prefer the CCP not repress dissent, too. Unrealized aspirations aren't the measure of freedom of a regime. (Sure, the US is better than the PRC when it comes to tolerating dissent. But it is not free of political repression.)

dragonwriter 6y ago

> I still don’t think that allowing only those with money to criticize our government is something to be proud of. reply You generally don’t have to be rich to criticize the government in the US (without punishment; being rich may be necessary to get heard, though, but that’s a different problem); on the issues where the government at any level will retaliate, directly or indirectly, for criticism, wealth isn't really all that effective in stopping it, either.