8 ms·

Hospitals are quickly filling up, young people need hospitals as much as anyone. What's your suggestion, allow elderly covid patients to die at home?

qeternity 6y ago
No they aren't. NHS occupancy in 2020 was lower than in 2019. We are currently 50% below our peak ventilator usage in April and the 7 day trend is very flat. This is just not true. Go look at the data instead of parroting headlines. EDIT Lol again downvotes but no replies. Does anyone want to bother educating me on this topic and showing me where hospitals are filling up? I would love to see it, because the NHS figures certainly don't show it.
- Silhouette 6y ago
  Go look at the data instead of parroting headlines. Or, even better, talk to anyone who works in a front-line NHS role, particularly in areas like A&E/intensive care. People who understand the context of the statistics and how they translate to real standards of patient care do not think everything is OK right now. As it happens, I've spent some time over the past few days travelling to and from various medical facilities. Every single one of them had heavy precautions in place. And on the radio in the car this afternoon, there was a whole series of medical and public health professionals talking about not only the current situation with the virus but also how damaging it is when people do exactly what you're doing right now. Remember, if you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, they probably know something you don't.
  - qeternity 6y ago
    > Or, even better, talk to anyone who works in a front-line NHS role, particularly in areas like A&E/intensive care. People who understand the context of the statistics and how they translate to real standards of patient care do not think everything is OK right now. Yeah I know that, my best mates girlfriend is a doctor. But that's not at all proof of anything. There is a reason that wars aren't planned and architected by the foot soldier in the trench. They don't have perspective and the task at hand detracts from the bigger picture. I have the utmost respect for our NHS heroes but front line personnel are the last people you should ask. They have been put through hell over the past year and if I were in their shoes I would be ready to keel over. And that's exactly why these individuals shouldn't be calling the shots...they're just seeing one part of the puzzle.
    - CodeGlitch 6y ago
      So if the foot soldier in the trench keeps complaining that they don't have enough bullets, and saying that without bullets they can't fight and will loose the battle, they shouldn't be listened to? I think they are exactly the ones we should be listening to.
      - qeternity 6y ago
        No, you give them more bullets. If the NHS says they need more supplies, then give it to them. But you don't listen to the foot soldier when they tell you how you should position your troops. And that's exactly what you're suggesting.
    - Silhouette 6y ago
      But that's not at all proof of anything. Do you realise that in two successive comments, you have literally just claimed that hospitals are not really filling up, then claimed that reports from front-line staff working in those hospitals don't prove anything? There is a reason that wars aren't planned and architected by the foot soldier in the trench. They don't have perspective and the task at hand detracts from the bigger picture. A curious metaphor. There is a reason for the saying that an army is run by its sergeants. All the plans made by generals aren't worth squat if you don't have boots on the ground who know what they're doing to implement those plans.
      - qeternity 6y ago
        > Do you realise that in two successive comments, you have literally just claimed that hospitals are not really filling up, then claimed that reports from front-line staff working in those hospitals don't prove anything? Um, what? That's exactly right. Hospitals are not filling up. The NHS own data shows this. The fact that doctors think the hospitals are filling up is irrelevant. People's estimates of things are notoriously incorrect, especially when they are under pressure. I'm not sure what you've taken issue with. Are you disputing the NHS data that hospitals are not filling up? > There is a reason for the saying that an army is run by its sergeants. All the plans made by generals aren't worth squat if you don't have boots on the ground who know what they're doing to implement those plans. Right, Sergents run the implementation, not the planning. What we are talking about is the planning. But the bigger issue with this logic is that this isn't a medical plan. It's a social one. The people who should develop a strategy around a global pandemic are not the same people who intubate the casualties of said pandemic. It's like asking a car mechanic how we should build safer roads...they're just not the same thing.
iridium_core 6y ago
Overflow hospitals in the UK have never been used: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/covid-patients-england-nightingale-hospitals-b538294.html https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/covid-patients-england-ni... The UK Government is arresting people who film empty hospitals: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13619752/moment-anti-covid-lockdown-activist-filmed-hospital-arrested/x https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13619752/moment-anti-covid-loc... Meanwhile less than 400 people under age 50 have died with/of COVID in the UK. The fundamental driver of this pandemic is the ill-health of the population - driven by sugar (obesity), coal and oil (air pollution), as well as Vitamin (D) deficiencies - but these factors receive no attention. Meanwhile in Sweden - without hard lockdown - deaths are up only 3.2% above 2018, and even then explained by mortality shifting from 2019 and 2021. Even Ukraine without hard lockdown over Winter has had far fewer deaths per Capita than the UK and has a much more rudimentary healthcare system. Lockdown seems to drive deaths, at huge social and economic cost, rather than prevent them.
- CodeGlitch 6y ago
  > The fundamental driver of this pandemic is the ill-health of the population - driven by sugar (obesity), coal and oil (air pollution), as well as Vitamin (D) deficiencies - but these factors receive no attention I was saying this at the start of the pandemic. The UK is approaching US -levels of obesity, but now we have "fat shaming" whereby any mention of overweight people being unhealthy is socially unacceptable; and showing skinny people in adverts on the London Undergound causes "offence". I wonder if this particular world-view will reverse in the coming years?
- xemoka 6y ago
  That 400 number seems off to me. Without more information on where you've pulled that number, what I can find is that there's ~74.7k deaths where COVID-19 was mentioned on the death cert in England and Whales since January last year. They didn't seem to really start counting that until March, until that point they were just classified as respiratory diseases. Current statistics show that there's around 1'400 deaths of those under 50 with COVID-19 listed on their death registration, ( https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/datasets/weeklyprovisionalfiguresondeathsregisteredinenglandandwales https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsde... ). Where's your data from? > Lockdown seems to drive deaths, at huge social and economic cost, rather than prevent them. This could easily be a reversed causality, that deaths drive lockdowns... which, on the surface seems to make sense as high deaths seem to force politicians to lockdown (either for reality or perception).
matz1 6y ago
Except they are not, vast majority of people infected with covid do not require hospitalization. If the hospital can't handle this virus then the health care system must be really bad in the first place. The solution is to fix and improve it, not lockdown. Lockdown measures is just cop out.
- Silhouette 6y ago
  If the hospital can't handle this virus then the health care system must be really bad in the first place. Any health system has finite resources available: facilities, equipment, trained staff, the money to pay for all of it, etc. If the NHS had already been set up to handle this once-in-a-century black swan event better, it would have been less effective at handling other conditions that have affected patients in the more than a century since the last outbreak of similar severity. I haven't been impressed by how our national government has handled this situation, but if you stop and think about what's happened in the past year or so, it's actually pretty amazing how quickly and effectively our NHS staff, scientific community and others playing supporting roles in our society have adapted. They are fixing and improving our healthcare system, and they're doing it right before our eyes in real time.

qeternity 6y ago

No they aren't. NHS occupancy in 2020 was lower than in 2019. We are currently 50% below our peak ventilator usage in April and the 7 day trend is very flat. This is just not true. Go look at the data instead of parroting headlines. EDIT Lol again downvotes but no replies. Does anyone want to bother educating me on this topic and showing me where hospitals are filling up? I would love to see it, because the NHS figures certainly don't show it.

Silhouette 6y ago
Go look at the data instead of parroting headlines. Or, even better, talk to anyone who works in a front-line NHS role, particularly in areas like A&E/intensive care. People who understand the context of the statistics and how they translate to real standards of patient care do not think everything is OK right now. As it happens, I've spent some time over the past few days travelling to and from various medical facilities. Every single one of them had heavy precautions in place. And on the radio in the car this afternoon, there was a whole series of medical and public health professionals talking about not only the current situation with the virus but also how damaging it is when people do exactly what you're doing right now. Remember, if you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, they probably know something you don't.
- qeternity 6y ago
  > Or, even better, talk to anyone who works in a front-line NHS role, particularly in areas like A&E/intensive care. People who understand the context of the statistics and how they translate to real standards of patient care do not think everything is OK right now. Yeah I know that, my best mates girlfriend is a doctor. But that's not at all proof of anything. There is a reason that wars aren't planned and architected by the foot soldier in the trench. They don't have perspective and the task at hand detracts from the bigger picture. I have the utmost respect for our NHS heroes but front line personnel are the last people you should ask. They have been put through hell over the past year and if I were in their shoes I would be ready to keel over. And that's exactly why these individuals shouldn't be calling the shots...they're just seeing one part of the puzzle.
  - CodeGlitch 6y ago
    So if the foot soldier in the trench keeps complaining that they don't have enough bullets, and saying that without bullets they can't fight and will loose the battle, they shouldn't be listened to? I think they are exactly the ones we should be listening to.
    - qeternity 6y ago
      No, you give them more bullets. If the NHS says they need more supplies, then give it to them. But you don't listen to the foot soldier when they tell you how you should position your troops. And that's exactly what you're suggesting.
  - Silhouette 6y ago
    But that's not at all proof of anything. Do you realise that in two successive comments, you have literally just claimed that hospitals are not really filling up, then claimed that reports from front-line staff working in those hospitals don't prove anything? There is a reason that wars aren't planned and architected by the foot soldier in the trench. They don't have perspective and the task at hand detracts from the bigger picture. A curious metaphor. There is a reason for the saying that an army is run by its sergeants. All the plans made by generals aren't worth squat if you don't have boots on the ground who know what they're doing to implement those plans.
    - qeternity 6y ago
      > Do you realise that in two successive comments, you have literally just claimed that hospitals are not really filling up, then claimed that reports from front-line staff working in those hospitals don't prove anything? Um, what? That's exactly right. Hospitals are not filling up. The NHS own data shows this. The fact that doctors think the hospitals are filling up is irrelevant. People's estimates of things are notoriously incorrect, especially when they are under pressure. I'm not sure what you've taken issue with. Are you disputing the NHS data that hospitals are not filling up? > There is a reason for the saying that an army is run by its sergeants. All the plans made by generals aren't worth squat if you don't have boots on the ground who know what they're doing to implement those plans. Right, Sergents run the implementation, not the planning. What we are talking about is the planning. But the bigger issue with this logic is that this isn't a medical plan. It's a social one. The people who should develop a strategy around a global pandemic are not the same people who intubate the casualties of said pandemic. It's like asking a car mechanic how we should build safer roads...they're just not the same thing.

iridium_core 6y ago

Overflow hospitals in the UK have never been used: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/covid-patients-england-nightingale-hospitals-b538294.html https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/covid-patients-england-ni... The UK Government is arresting people who film empty hospitals: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13619752/moment-anti-covid-lockdown-activist-filmed-hospital-arrested/x https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13619752/moment-anti-covid-loc... Meanwhile less than 400 people under age 50 have died with/of COVID in the UK. The fundamental driver of this pandemic is the ill-health of the population - driven by sugar (obesity), coal and oil (air pollution), as well as Vitamin (D) deficiencies - but these factors receive no attention. Meanwhile in Sweden - without hard lockdown - deaths are up only 3.2% above 2018, and even then explained by mortality shifting from 2019 and 2021. Even Ukraine without hard lockdown over Winter has had far fewer deaths per Capita than the UK and has a much more rudimentary healthcare system. Lockdown seems to drive deaths, at huge social and economic cost, rather than prevent them.

CodeGlitch 6y ago
> The fundamental driver of this pandemic is the ill-health of the population - driven by sugar (obesity), coal and oil (air pollution), as well as Vitamin (D) deficiencies - but these factors receive no attention I was saying this at the start of the pandemic. The UK is approaching US -levels of obesity, but now we have "fat shaming" whereby any mention of overweight people being unhealthy is socially unacceptable; and showing skinny people in adverts on the London Undergound causes "offence". I wonder if this particular world-view will reverse in the coming years?
xemoka 6y ago
That 400 number seems off to me. Without more information on where you've pulled that number, what I can find is that there's ~74.7k deaths where COVID-19 was mentioned on the death cert in England and Whales since January last year. They didn't seem to really start counting that until March, until that point they were just classified as respiratory diseases. Current statistics show that there's around 1'400 deaths of those under 50 with COVID-19 listed on their death registration, ( https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/datasets/weeklyprovisionalfiguresondeathsregisteredinenglandandwales https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsde... ). Where's your data from? > Lockdown seems to drive deaths, at huge social and economic cost, rather than prevent them. This could easily be a reversed causality, that deaths drive lockdowns... which, on the surface seems to make sense as high deaths seem to force politicians to lockdown (either for reality or perception).

matz1 6y ago

Except they are not, vast majority of people infected with covid do not require hospitalization. If the hospital can't handle this virus then the health care system must be really bad in the first place. The solution is to fix and improve it, not lockdown. Lockdown measures is just cop out.

Silhouette 6y ago
If the hospital can't handle this virus then the health care system must be really bad in the first place. Any health system has finite resources available: facilities, equipment, trained staff, the money to pay for all of it, etc. If the NHS had already been set up to handle this once-in-a-century black swan event better, it would have been less effective at handling other conditions that have affected patients in the more than a century since the last outbreak of similar severity. I haven't been impressed by how our national government has handled this situation, but if you stop and think about what's happened in the past year or so, it's actually pretty amazing how quickly and effectively our NHS staff, scientific community and others playing supporting roles in our society have adapted. They are fixing and improving our healthcare system, and they're doing it right before our eyes in real time.