4 ms·

Downvote me if you want, but as a SWE I find my job very highly rewarded both economically and technically. I'm happy where I am and in my team. I'm a minority

Downvote me if you want, but as a SWE I find my job very highly rewarded both economically and technically. I'm happy where I am and in my team. I'm a minority and I have study all my life to be competitive, I have been treated fairly because of my skills. Free food, gym, coffee, stocks, high salaries, mobility, not sure I can ask for more

dogprez 6y ago
I can't speak the the intent of the union in the article but after all of those things you listed you might want to know that your colleagues are getting treated fairly as well. For example, how would you feel about all your benefits if you learned there were contractors that did your same job that didn't have access to the same benefits that you have and haven't been given an avenue to earn those benefits? (https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2019-11-08/the-secret-and-frustrating-life-of-a-google-contract-worker https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2019-11-08...) Or, how would your feel if the product you worked on was being produced with slave labor? (https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/12/29/lens-technology-apple-uighur/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/12/29/lens-te...) Would it be enough to just say, "I'm not ok with that, I'll work somewhere else." or do you think you should have some say about how your work is used?
- Nebasuke 6y ago
  The contractor mentioned in the article is not doing the same job, but is instead a vendor (the vendor term is only mentioned in passing in the article). Google classifies contractors that work via an external agency as vendors. Most vendor workers at Google have roles which don't exist as a full time role at all and vendor contracts often even prevent vendor workers from being permanently hired. Cleaners for example are often vendors.
  - dogprez 6y ago
    Right, it's my understanding that the situation described in the article can exist for SWEs as well. It matches what was described to me from a SWE at a subsidiary of Alphabet. In their words they were doing the same work at a fraction of the pay without an avenue for conversion since they were engaged through a 3rd party.
shakezula 6y ago
If you want to have all of that in the future, as SWE jobs grow in ubiquity and quantity, you should want a union. The reason we have those things now is because we had the leverage in scarcity. In the next decade that scarcity will be gone and you'll be replaceable.
- TerminalSystem3 6y ago
  What exactly makes you think that demand for SWE jobs will evaporate in the next decade? It looks to me like demand should be higher than ever with all the various car, IoT, security related tech news we've seen recently.
  - shakezula 6y ago
    I’m not saying demand evaporates. I’m saying supply balloons.
- 0xy 6y ago
  >that scarcity will be gone and you'll be replaceable That's a wild prediction not based in fact. There's an insurmountable skills shortage in tech and always will be. Appetite for automation, efficiency and software solutions is practically unbounded. Fact is, software salaries are sky high because there's no union. No high performer would ever willingly join a union so his salary can be halved or worse with the difference given to someone who is far less good at their job and is essentially unfireable. Teachers unions ruined education, and a software union would similarly ruin software by protecting the worse engineers and dragging salaries down of high performers. The best teacher in the US is paid identically to the worst teacher. No wonder education is a disaster.
  - shakezula 6y ago
    > That's a wild prediction not based in fact Correct, it's a prediction based on the job market numbers, I wouldn't call it "wild" though. > There's an insurmountable skills shortage in tech and always will be. This is incredibly optimistic and in my opinion very naive view of tech. I've already started seeing wages for junior and mid level engineers decreasing because of the flood of new bootcamp graduates. > Appetite for automation, efficiency and software solutions is practically unbounded. Sure, doesn't mean that 10x increase in the labor pool won't effect wages. > software salaries are sky high because there's no union Source needed. > so his salary can be halved You can't say mine is not based in fact and that pull numbers out of your ass, too, ya dingus. > Teachers unions ruined education Source needed. > dragging salaries down of high performers. Do you consider yourself a "high performer"? A 10xer? It's hard to judge ourselves accurately, isn't it? > The best teacher in the US is paid identically to the worst teacher. No wonder education is a disaster. I would think to blame a great many things for this before I'd put the blame at unions, which have been losing power in the states since at least the 90s, probably earlier. Republicans have been gutting education spending the entire time, too. But sure, it was the big bad unions that did it. All I'm saying is that tech wages are good right now, but they won't be this good forever, and we should use our current leverage to at least try to situate ourselves into a more solid standing. If you don't think unions are the way to do that, that's fine, but you can't disagree with the numbers. There's an huge flux of new SWE's entering the workforce right now, in 5-10 years it's going to start being a significant factor in wages all the way up to the top skill levels.

dogprez 6y ago

I can't speak the the intent of the union in the article but after all of those things you listed you might want to know that your colleagues are getting treated fairly as well. For example, how would you feel about all your benefits if you learned there were contractors that did your same job that didn't have access to the same benefits that you have and haven't been given an avenue to earn those benefits? (https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2019-11-08/the-secret-and-frustrating-life-of-a-google-contract-worker https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2019-11-08...) Or, how would your feel if the product you worked on was being produced with slave labor? (https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/12/29/lens-technology-apple-uighur/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/12/29/lens-te...) Would it be enough to just say, "I'm not ok with that, I'll work somewhere else." or do you think you should have some say about how your work is used?

Nebasuke 6y ago
The contractor mentioned in the article is not doing the same job, but is instead a vendor (the vendor term is only mentioned in passing in the article). Google classifies contractors that work via an external agency as vendors. Most vendor workers at Google have roles which don't exist as a full time role at all and vendor contracts often even prevent vendor workers from being permanently hired. Cleaners for example are often vendors.
- dogprez 6y ago
  Right, it's my understanding that the situation described in the article can exist for SWEs as well. It matches what was described to me from a SWE at a subsidiary of Alphabet. In their words they were doing the same work at a fraction of the pay without an avenue for conversion since they were engaged through a 3rd party.

shakezula 6y ago

If you want to have all of that in the future, as SWE jobs grow in ubiquity and quantity, you should want a union. The reason we have those things now is because we had the leverage in scarcity. In the next decade that scarcity will be gone and you'll be replaceable.

TerminalSystem3 6y ago
What exactly makes you think that demand for SWE jobs will evaporate in the next decade? It looks to me like demand should be higher than ever with all the various car, IoT, security related tech news we've seen recently.
- shakezula 6y ago
  I’m not saying demand evaporates. I’m saying supply balloons.
0xy 6y ago
>that scarcity will be gone and you'll be replaceable That's a wild prediction not based in fact. There's an insurmountable skills shortage in tech and always will be. Appetite for automation, efficiency and software solutions is practically unbounded. Fact is, software salaries are sky high because there's no union. No high performer would ever willingly join a union so his salary can be halved or worse with the difference given to someone who is far less good at their job and is essentially unfireable. Teachers unions ruined education, and a software union would similarly ruin software by protecting the worse engineers and dragging salaries down of high performers. The best teacher in the US is paid identically to the worst teacher. No wonder education is a disaster.
- shakezula 6y ago
  > That's a wild prediction not based in fact Correct, it's a prediction based on the job market numbers, I wouldn't call it "wild" though. > There's an insurmountable skills shortage in tech and always will be. This is incredibly optimistic and in my opinion very naive view of tech. I've already started seeing wages for junior and mid level engineers decreasing because of the flood of new bootcamp graduates. > Appetite for automation, efficiency and software solutions is practically unbounded. Sure, doesn't mean that 10x increase in the labor pool won't effect wages. > software salaries are sky high because there's no union Source needed. > so his salary can be halved You can't say mine is not based in fact and that pull numbers out of your ass, too, ya dingus. > Teachers unions ruined education Source needed. > dragging salaries down of high performers. Do you consider yourself a "high performer"? A 10xer? It's hard to judge ourselves accurately, isn't it? > The best teacher in the US is paid identically to the worst teacher. No wonder education is a disaster. I would think to blame a great many things for this before I'd put the blame at unions, which have been losing power in the states since at least the 90s, probably earlier. Republicans have been gutting education spending the entire time, too. But sure, it was the big bad unions that did it. All I'm saying is that tech wages are good right now, but they won't be this good forever, and we should use our current leverage to at least try to situate ourselves into a more solid standing. If you don't think unions are the way to do that, that's fine, but you can't disagree with the numbers. There's an huge flux of new SWE's entering the workforce right now, in 5-10 years it's going to start being a significant factor in wages all the way up to the top skill levels.