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If there's anything to learn from Assange and Snowden: 1. Our western "liberal" democracies stop being liberal when the government gets angry at you at a perso

If there's anything to learn from Assange and Snowden: 1. Our western "liberal" democracies stop being liberal when the government gets angry at you at a personal level. 2. With enough propaganda, you can make people believe anything, even that Snowden is a "traitor" to the US. 3. Politically vociferous people (the mob) don't give a shit about you unless you're instrumental to support the cause du jour

mhh__ 6y ago
> Our western "liberal" democracies stop being liberal when the government gets angry at you at a personal level. That's a fairly weak observation both because liberal democracies still punish criminals and many people do take serious issue with what Assange is and has done - it's just not a common thing to say on hackernews.
- iaw 6y ago
  > it's just not a common thing to say on hackernews. It's a heavily penalized sentiment in this portion of the internet.
Krasnol 6y ago
> Our western "liberal" democracies ....are by far not all like the United States.
lern_too_spel 6y ago
> With enough propaganda, you can make people believe anything, even that Snowden is a "traitor" to the US. When you do things like https://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1266892/exclusive-nsa-targeted-chinas-tsinghua-university-extensive-hacking https://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1266892/exclusive-ns..., no propaganda is necessary.
- Talanes 6y ago
  That is horrible. Wasting tax dollars spying on schools.
  - season2episode3 6y ago
    A country’s premier research university seems like a pretty normal espionage target.
  - PostOnce 6y ago
    Does Lincoln Lab count as MIT? Is it really a "school" per se? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIT_Lincoln_Laboratory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIT_Lincoln_Laboratory It'd be pretty surprising if no one was attempting to spy on such organizations I don't know what Tsinghua does but I can imagine a top school doing similar government-funded work anywhere
    - bboston7 6y ago
      > It'd be pretty surprising if no one was attempting to spy on such organizations Just last year a professor and two Chinese nationals at Harvard were indicted for something similar: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/harvard-university-professor-and-two-chinese-nationals-charged-three-separate-china-related https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/harvard-university-professor-...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
pmiller2 6y ago
Back when Snowden initially did what he did, I had a conversation with some coworkers about whether he was a hero or a traitor for releasing that information. I, personally, concluded that he was a bit of both, but, on balance, I considered him more heroic than traitorous. These days, I've shifted my opinion even more toward "heroic."
myrandomcomment 6y ago
Publishing what he did is not a crime (under ruling on the Pentagon Papers) however everyone here seems to miss the point that he did so without the normal process a journalist would apply, redacting the names of people that would be put at risk of harm in doing so. That was irresponsible and could be considered criminal. If you read the ruling the judge makes it clear that his actions would be considered a crime in the UK.
- TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
  So what exactly is his fate if the appeals process which the US is planning fails to change anything? Does he live free in the UK or will he be prosecuted in the UK for something else? I can’t find any information about that.
  - myrandomcomment 6y ago
    Honestly, I am going to bet he looses in the end. The US government has unlimited time and will around these things (look at what they did to the mob). Let’s say he steps one foot out of the UK to another country that has an extradition treaty, US issues warrant and it starts all over again. It is likely given the fact that the UK judges only reason for not granting the request was how he would be held that the US government as we speak are drawling up a proposal that would be agreeable to the judge.
    - CyanBird 6y ago
      > The US government has unlimited time and will around these things > ... > Let’s say he steps one foot out of the UK to another country that has an extradition treaty Very much agree with this take, after all the US already forced the landing of the Bolivian presidential plane in Austria when they believed that Snowden could be aboard it in order to capture him and extradite him to the US
      - heavenlyblue 6y ago
        > US already forced the landing of the Bolivian presidential plane in Austria What would they do if Snowden was actually on the plane and the Bolivian president had a reason not to land the plane? I bet they would do nothing. Or do you think they would literally down a plane with a president of another country? The only reason they landed was because they had nothing to hide. I am also pretty certain American politicans are smart enough to realise that the only reason that plane landed was because there was no one there.
disown 6y ago
One of the most interesting aspects of the assange saga is how journalists and mainstream media treated him throughout the years. When he exposed Bush, the media and journalists celebrated him as a hero. I believe he was even given some awards. When he exposed Hillary, the media and journalists attacked him. Journalism is political activism at its core.
- anothernewdude 6y ago
  He's been a piece of shit for decades
anothernewdude 6y ago
Pretty sure Snowden dumped every single thing he could get his hands on. That pretty much makes him a traitor.
- berkes 6y ago
  Reading your comment history, you are only here to spew your hate for Snowden and Assange: clearly a political motive. > Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity. -- https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - anothernewdude 6y ago
    They're both fools that a certain subset - call them uncritical libertarians - of the tech comunity seem to worship. The topic annoys me. Reading from that to my "purpose" for being here, and moreover calling it a "political" purpose (ignoring the fact that basically everything is political) is entirely spurious.
    - antihero 6y ago
      You think exposing government atrocity and showing people what is done in their name to them and by them makes people fools?
heresie-dabord 6y ago
Power structures protect themselves. They use various combinations of propaganda and force. The lesson is that the US and the UK are the same power structure.

mhh__ 6y ago

> Our western "liberal" democracies stop being liberal when the government gets angry at you at a personal level. That's a fairly weak observation both because liberal democracies still punish criminals and many people do take serious issue with what Assange is and has done - it's just not a common thing to say on hackernews.

iaw 6y ago
> it's just not a common thing to say on hackernews. It's a heavily penalized sentiment in this portion of the internet.

Krasnol 6y ago

> Our western "liberal" democracies ....are by far not all like the United States.

lern_too_spel 6y ago

> With enough propaganda, you can make people believe anything, even that Snowden is a "traitor" to the US. When you do things like https://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1266892/exclusive-nsa-targeted-chinas-tsinghua-university-extensive-hacking https://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1266892/exclusive-ns..., no propaganda is necessary.

Talanes 6y ago
That is horrible. Wasting tax dollars spying on schools.
- season2episode3 6y ago
  A country’s premier research university seems like a pretty normal espionage target.
- PostOnce 6y ago
  Does Lincoln Lab count as MIT? Is it really a "school" per se? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIT_Lincoln_Laboratory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIT_Lincoln_Laboratory It'd be pretty surprising if no one was attempting to spy on such organizations I don't know what Tsinghua does but I can imagine a top school doing similar government-funded work anywhere
  - bboston7 6y ago
    > It'd be pretty surprising if no one was attempting to spy on such organizations Just last year a professor and two Chinese nationals at Harvard were indicted for something similar: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/harvard-university-professor-and-two-chinese-nationals-charged-three-separate-china-related https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/harvard-university-professor-...

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

pmiller2 6y ago

Back when Snowden initially did what he did, I had a conversation with some coworkers about whether he was a hero or a traitor for releasing that information. I, personally, concluded that he was a bit of both, but, on balance, I considered him more heroic than traitorous. These days, I've shifted my opinion even more toward "heroic."

myrandomcomment 6y ago

Publishing what he did is not a crime (under ruling on the Pentagon Papers) however everyone here seems to miss the point that he did so without the normal process a journalist would apply, redacting the names of people that would be put at risk of harm in doing so. That was irresponsible and could be considered criminal. If you read the ruling the judge makes it clear that his actions would be considered a crime in the UK.

TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
So what exactly is his fate if the appeals process which the US is planning fails to change anything? Does he live free in the UK or will he be prosecuted in the UK for something else? I can’t find any information about that.
- myrandomcomment 6y ago
  Honestly, I am going to bet he looses in the end. The US government has unlimited time and will around these things (look at what they did to the mob). Let’s say he steps one foot out of the UK to another country that has an extradition treaty, US issues warrant and it starts all over again. It is likely given the fact that the UK judges only reason for not granting the request was how he would be held that the US government as we speak are drawling up a proposal that would be agreeable to the judge.
  - CyanBird 6y ago
    > The US government has unlimited time and will around these things > ... > Let’s say he steps one foot out of the UK to another country that has an extradition treaty Very much agree with this take, after all the US already forced the landing of the Bolivian presidential plane in Austria when they believed that Snowden could be aboard it in order to capture him and extradite him to the US
    - heavenlyblue 6y ago
      > US already forced the landing of the Bolivian presidential plane in Austria What would they do if Snowden was actually on the plane and the Bolivian president had a reason not to land the plane? I bet they would do nothing. Or do you think they would literally down a plane with a president of another country? The only reason they landed was because they had nothing to hide. I am also pretty certain American politicans are smart enough to realise that the only reason that plane landed was because there was no one there.

disown 6y ago

One of the most interesting aspects of the assange saga is how journalists and mainstream media treated him throughout the years. When he exposed Bush, the media and journalists celebrated him as a hero. I believe he was even given some awards. When he exposed Hillary, the media and journalists attacked him. Journalism is political activism at its core.

anothernewdude 6y ago
He's been a piece of shit for decades

anothernewdude 6y ago

Pretty sure Snowden dumped every single thing he could get his hands on. That pretty much makes him a traitor.

berkes 6y ago
Reading your comment history, you are only here to spew your hate for Snowden and Assange: clearly a political motive. > Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity. -- https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- anothernewdude 6y ago
  They're both fools that a certain subset - call them uncritical libertarians - of the tech comunity seem to worship. The topic annoys me. Reading from that to my "purpose" for being here, and moreover calling it a "political" purpose (ignoring the fact that basically everything is political) is entirely spurious.
  - antihero 6y ago
    You think exposing government atrocity and showing people what is done in their name to them and by them makes people fools?

heresie-dabord 6y ago

Power structures protect themselves. They use various combinations of propaganda and force. The lesson is that the US and the UK are the same power structure.