4 ms·

Their purpose is multifaceted, but without a (mostly) unified front on matters they wish to bargain around, their ability to best serve their members during bar

Their purpose is multifaceted, but without a (mostly) unified front on matters they wish to bargain around, their ability to best serve their members during bargaining is compromised. Threats of withholding union protection for making an informed choice would be shocking (and likely illegal!). I don't pretend to know what you've seen and heard, but in most cases where "threats" were made, my bet would be that a statement like "if you want the union to be around to help protect you, listening to our guidance is the best course", was interpreted as a threat (singular specific you), rather than a general statement on the importance of how vital solidarity is for the survival of the union and its collective bargaining power(general/plural you).

abduhl 6y ago
of course, just like how when the mob says "if you want our guys to be around to help protect you, listening to our guidance is the best course" it's not a threat but a general statement on the importance of community solidarity or how when trump says "if you want our tax dollars and support for your state, finding those extra votes is the best course" it's not a threat but a general statement on the financial realities of federal spending
- ineedasername 6y ago
  "Hey NY Governor, nice state you have there. Shame if it didn't get any vaccines"
  - ineedasername 6y ago
    This was pretty much the threat that occured: NY Governor: I disagree and think the vaccine rollout plan needs to be better. President Trump: Fine, we won't send you any vaccines.
ineedasername 6y ago
Shocking, but not uncommon in my anecdotal experience. Of course it might not be universal. In my experience it went as follows: Union members automatically pay dues. They have the option of paying more dues. Someone who paid the automatic dues went to the union for help. Each time, they were urged to opt in to paying more dues. They chose not to, and were left waiting for help. When they finally chose to increase their dues, the help suddenly materialized. And sure, most speech surrounding the bullying isn't direct. Would you expect it to be explicit? That simply isn't how any remotely intelligent person makes illegal threats. But it's pretty easy to pick up on the tone of "hey it's a nice job you have here. It would be a shame if something were to happen to it" I support unions, I think they provide a net benefit to workers, but power structures frequently attract people more interested in wielding the power than in the purpose that power is suppose to serve. I see too much of a tendency in supporters of unions to overlook this fact, with any criticism dismissed as "you don't support the workers!". (Note: I'm not accusing you of that. We appear to be having a reasonable discussion)
- phil21 6y ago
  > And sure, most speech surrounding the bullying isn't direct. Having been in two unions in a prior life, I'd say the only reason this is true is due to lack of in-person communication. Anything documentable will be kept to semi-acceptable levels. The true (daily) abuse comes when they return to the classroom. These folks need to prepare for some bullying. Most teachers defying the union on this will not make it more than another year in that district once classrooms return would be my uninformed bet. It will be a mission of every other union member at each school to make their everyday existence a living hell. Yes, I have very poor taste in my mouth when it comes to my experiences with unions. I certainly recognize what they've accomplished and could still accomplish; but until they stop existing as corrupt rackets to protect the lowest common denominator employee they are going to be a hard sell to much of the US who has dealt with such creatures.

abduhl 6y ago

of course, just like how when the mob says "if you want our guys to be around to help protect you, listening to our guidance is the best course" it's not a threat but a general statement on the importance of community solidarity or how when trump says "if you want our tax dollars and support for your state, finding those extra votes is the best course" it's not a threat but a general statement on the financial realities of federal spending

ineedasername 6y ago
"Hey NY Governor, nice state you have there. Shame if it didn't get any vaccines"
- ineedasername 6y ago
  This was pretty much the threat that occured: NY Governor: I disagree and think the vaccine rollout plan needs to be better. President Trump: Fine, we won't send you any vaccines.

ineedasername 6y ago

Shocking, but not uncommon in my anecdotal experience. Of course it might not be universal. In my experience it went as follows: Union members automatically pay dues. They have the option of paying more dues. Someone who paid the automatic dues went to the union for help. Each time, they were urged to opt in to paying more dues. They chose not to, and were left waiting for help. When they finally chose to increase their dues, the help suddenly materialized. And sure, most speech surrounding the bullying isn't direct. Would you expect it to be explicit? That simply isn't how any remotely intelligent person makes illegal threats. But it's pretty easy to pick up on the tone of "hey it's a nice job you have here. It would be a shame if something were to happen to it" I support unions, I think they provide a net benefit to workers, but power structures frequently attract people more interested in wielding the power than in the purpose that power is suppose to serve. I see too much of a tendency in supporters of unions to overlook this fact, with any criticism dismissed as "you don't support the workers!". (Note: I'm not accusing you of that. We appear to be having a reasonable discussion)

phil21 6y ago
> And sure, most speech surrounding the bullying isn't direct. Having been in two unions in a prior life, I'd say the only reason this is true is due to lack of in-person communication. Anything documentable will be kept to semi-acceptable levels. The true (daily) abuse comes when they return to the classroom. These folks need to prepare for some bullying. Most teachers defying the union on this will not make it more than another year in that district once classrooms return would be my uninformed bet. It will be a mission of every other union member at each school to make their everyday existence a living hell. Yes, I have very poor taste in my mouth when it comes to my experiences with unions. I certainly recognize what they've accomplished and could still accomplish; but until they stop existing as corrupt rackets to protect the lowest common denominator employee they are going to be a hard sell to much of the US who has dealt with such creatures.