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It is the rate of vaccination that is interesting to me. Doctors and nurses are turning down the shot at rates that are surprising. These are supposedly the m

It is the rate of vaccination that is interesting to me. Doctors and nurses are turning down the shot at rates that are surprising. These are supposedly the most informed group - the group that counsels everyone else. Why? Look at these death totals by age Age 25-34: 2087 deaths. Age 35-44: 5398 deaths. Age 45-54: 14496 deaths. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm These are small numbers. I don't think we're going to get herd immunity without vaccine mandates.

sigstoat 6y ago
> Why? overall rates for a group contain millions or tens of millions of people probably aren't going to be dominated by a single explanation. maybe they want to leave them free for groups that are at higher risk? not every kind of doctor is dangerously exposed to risky patients.
- testfoobar 6y ago
  Any group that is offered the vaccine but turns it down at any significant rate is a useful data point in projecting the date date we reach herd immunity. For example, consider if vaccine uptake was 100% - we would immediately know that we were supply and rate of delivery limited. Alternative consider if the vaccinate uptake rate was 10% - then we have the opposite problem. Demand is too low. In this case, with some doctors and nurses rejecting the vaccine, it is reasonable to project that overall demand for the vaccine across the general population will be low. This means that the date we reach herd immunity is farther in the future than if the uptake rate was 100%.
  - sigstoat 6y ago
    i was quoting your "Why?", not asking you a question. and if you continue to treat a group of millions as a homogenous unit, you can't have thoughts like "maybe the doctors turning it down right now will accept it after the elderly are all vaccinated" which wouldn't slow down the overall vaccination rate.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - testfoobar 6y ago
      "maybe the doctors turning it down right now will accept it after the elderly are all vaccinated" - This is a conjecture and not a fact observable in any collected data about vaccine uptake. What your thoughts or my thoughts are really don't matter. What matters is observable facts and how they inform us about future policy decisions. To me, medical professionals turning down the vaccine when offered suggests that public policy makers should consider vaccine mandates if we're to reach herd immunity faster.
      - edmundsauto 6y ago
        Only if you think the doctors' decision, right now, is broadly generalizable to the entire population at the moment the vaccine is available to them. To me, this is a massive leap. Broadly, however, you are right: we should be (and are!) studying vaccine uptake. It is not a wise decision to put much weight on the doctor data, as it's not been shown to be generalizable.
viggity 6y ago
I too have been surprised. I'm more surprised about physicians turning it down than nurses. I love nurses, we've got 15 on our payroll, they're kind and wonderfully exceptional people. But they operate heavily under various protocols outlined for them, and while they have more health knowledge than your random person when it comes to the nitty gritty details they are naïve. The number of nurses who think that the mRNA vaccines permanently alter your DNA would surprise you. My hope is that after the roll out and the number of serious adverse events is shown to be miniscule, people will be less reluctant to take the vaccine.
- amanaplanacanal 6y ago
  I’m not even in health care and I have a reasonable understanding of how dna, rna, translation and transcription work. Do nurses not learn this stuff?
  - davrosthedalek 6y ago
    Not sure about nurses, but a broad section of the population does not know how percentages work. This is true for almost all countries. The width in science skills is breathtaking.
  - f6v 6y ago
    You’d be surprised how many software developers have no idea how https works.
  - viggity 6y ago
    lol. no. no way. I would guess that about 2/3 of our nurses could give you the 8th grade explanation of dna - "a sperm and an egg each contribute half of each chromosome and that is the instruction book on how to make every cell blah blah blah". rna, translation and transcription. I don't think a single one would know. They need to know the common drugs in their field, how to take vitals, when to raise the red flag to a physician. That's it. That is all still super important, if they don't use it at least once a year, they're not going know.
- testfoobar 6y ago

sigstoat 6y ago

> Why? overall rates for a group contain millions or tens of millions of people probably aren't going to be dominated by a single explanation. maybe they want to leave them free for groups that are at higher risk? not every kind of doctor is dangerously exposed to risky patients.

testfoobar 6y ago
Any group that is offered the vaccine but turns it down at any significant rate is a useful data point in projecting the date date we reach herd immunity. For example, consider if vaccine uptake was 100% - we would immediately know that we were supply and rate of delivery limited. Alternative consider if the vaccinate uptake rate was 10% - then we have the opposite problem. Demand is too low. In this case, with some doctors and nurses rejecting the vaccine, it is reasonable to project that overall demand for the vaccine across the general population will be low. This means that the date we reach herd immunity is farther in the future than if the uptake rate was 100%.
- sigstoat 6y ago
  i was quoting your "Why?", not asking you a question. and if you continue to treat a group of millions as a homogenous unit, you can't have thoughts like "maybe the doctors turning it down right now will accept it after the elderly are all vaccinated" which wouldn't slow down the overall vaccination rate.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - testfoobar 6y ago
    "maybe the doctors turning it down right now will accept it after the elderly are all vaccinated" - This is a conjecture and not a fact observable in any collected data about vaccine uptake. What your thoughts or my thoughts are really don't matter. What matters is observable facts and how they inform us about future policy decisions. To me, medical professionals turning down the vaccine when offered suggests that public policy makers should consider vaccine mandates if we're to reach herd immunity faster.
    - edmundsauto 6y ago
      Only if you think the doctors' decision, right now, is broadly generalizable to the entire population at the moment the vaccine is available to them. To me, this is a massive leap. Broadly, however, you are right: we should be (and are!) studying vaccine uptake. It is not a wise decision to put much weight on the doctor data, as it's not been shown to be generalizable.

viggity 6y ago

I too have been surprised. I'm more surprised about physicians turning it down than nurses. I love nurses, we've got 15 on our payroll, they're kind and wonderfully exceptional people. But they operate heavily under various protocols outlined for them, and while they have more health knowledge than your random person when it comes to the nitty gritty details they are naïve. The number of nurses who think that the mRNA vaccines permanently alter your DNA would surprise you. My hope is that after the roll out and the number of serious adverse events is shown to be miniscule, people will be less reluctant to take the vaccine.

amanaplanacanal 6y ago
I’m not even in health care and I have a reasonable understanding of how dna, rna, translation and transcription work. Do nurses not learn this stuff?
- davrosthedalek 6y ago
  Not sure about nurses, but a broad section of the population does not know how percentages work. This is true for almost all countries. The width in science skills is breathtaking.
- f6v 6y ago
  You’d be surprised how many software developers have no idea how https works.
- viggity 6y ago
  lol. no. no way. I would guess that about 2/3 of our nurses could give you the 8th grade explanation of dna - "a sperm and an egg each contribute half of each chromosome and that is the instruction book on how to make every cell blah blah blah". rna, translation and transcription. I don't think a single one would know. They need to know the common drugs in their field, how to take vitals, when to raise the red flag to a physician. That's it. That is all still super important, if they don't use it at least once a year, they're not going know.
testfoobar 6y ago