6 ms·

> I think the warning about building your business on someone else's land There aren't really any businesses which have sovereign territory

by __s 6y ago

ffhhj 6y ago
> There aren't really any businesses which have sovereign territory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City
- saotome 6y ago
  touché
smoyer 6y ago
That's an interesting position (and I'm not disputing it) but if you were a business that has sovereign territory, you still need utilities (Internet). Penn State has its own data-centers, is part of the Internet2 consortium and has dedicated fiber to both AWS and Azure but you're still ultimately reliant on those you're leasing the connections from - even if you own the fiber, you're probably leasing the right-of-way/poles/etc. So ... how do we build an Internet that's fully inter-connected but can withstand actions by the few relatively large carriers? Thinking about it a bit more, isn't the effect of having a few large network providers analogous to the issue with BitCoin having a few large mining operations in effective control of the ecosystem?
- MichaelZuo 6y ago
  Satellite fleets?
  - smoyer 6y ago
    Which could theoretically be done today but then you'd be a tenant of Musk. I really think the idea of mesh networks is great for neighborhoods but can it be extended to a global-scale network (well ... continent scale until there's a personal communication mechanism that will cross oceans)? EDIT: This was posted on today's "Who is hiring?" thread - not really p2p Internet but ... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25633106 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25633106
    - jki275 6y ago
      You can theoretically run a very low bandwidth set of links over any radio technology, including HF which will give you that long range connectivity. Problem is, people expect streaming video on their smartphones. You can't do that over low bandwidth over the horizon links. Continent scale? Depends on the continent. No way to do that in the Americas, there's just too much open space. You could do it in many cities I do think.
    - MichaelZuo 6y ago
      I imagine there are no upper bounds to the growth of satellite communication capabilities other than physical limits. Extrapolating a few decades at current growth rates out the network be enormous.
- toast0 6y ago
  Carrier's ability to influence has everything to do with their duopoloy on the last mile to the eyeballs. If you're in the position to lease a connection to an internet exchange, you've got tons of options for transit from there. And leasing fiber is generally a matter of location and cost, not content; I don't know if it's strictly common carrier, but it might be.
dspillett 6y ago
On a single someone else's land then? Going multi-platform from the start is probably not the way to go as you are adding complication before you have the basics rounded out, but once you are spending that much on advertising you presumably have a sizable turn-over and should have long ago looked at diversifying to deal with situations like this which (even if temporary) could kill the business model. Of course if FB is truly the only game in town for your target audience, you have a problem there...
dkdk8283 6y ago
Aren’t countries a business?
rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y ago
Funnily enough, I worked for a company that sold software to casinos, many of which very much exist on sovereign tribal land, where they're often the single major business entity. It led to some quirkiness: we had to disavow ourselves of almost all cloud services. They wanted all the software and data on-prem because they didn't want anything on U.S. soil.
alisonkisk 6y ago
You don't have to be sovereign to own land. I own land.
kube-system 6y ago
Well, at least not currently. The East India Company didn't worry about building their business on other people's land. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_rule_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_rule_in_India There are a couple authoritarian states that have fully-owned state enterprises that people might also argue are one-in-the-same.

> I think the warning about building your business on someone else's land There aren't really any businesses which have sovereign territory

by __s 6y ago

> I think the warning about building your business on someone else's land There aren't really any businesses which have sovereign territory

ffhhj 6y ago

> There aren't really any businesses which have sovereign territory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City

saotome 6y ago
touché

smoyer 6y ago

That's an interesting position (and I'm not disputing it) but if you were a business that has sovereign territory, you still need utilities (Internet). Penn State has its own data-centers, is part of the Internet2 consortium and has dedicated fiber to both AWS and Azure but you're still ultimately reliant on those you're leasing the connections from - even if you own the fiber, you're probably leasing the right-of-way/poles/etc. So ... how do we build an Internet that's fully inter-connected but can withstand actions by the few relatively large carriers? Thinking about it a bit more, isn't the effect of having a few large network providers analogous to the issue with BitCoin having a few large mining operations in effective control of the ecosystem?

MichaelZuo 6y ago
Satellite fleets?
- smoyer 6y ago
  Which could theoretically be done today but then you'd be a tenant of Musk. I really think the idea of mesh networks is great for neighborhoods but can it be extended to a global-scale network (well ... continent scale until there's a personal communication mechanism that will cross oceans)? EDIT: This was posted on today's "Who is hiring?" thread - not really p2p Internet but ... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25633106 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25633106
  - jki275 6y ago
    You can theoretically run a very low bandwidth set of links over any radio technology, including HF which will give you that long range connectivity. Problem is, people expect streaming video on their smartphones. You can't do that over low bandwidth over the horizon links. Continent scale? Depends on the continent. No way to do that in the Americas, there's just too much open space. You could do it in many cities I do think.
  - MichaelZuo 6y ago
    I imagine there are no upper bounds to the growth of satellite communication capabilities other than physical limits. Extrapolating a few decades at current growth rates out the network be enormous.
toast0 6y ago
Carrier's ability to influence has everything to do with their duopoloy on the last mile to the eyeballs. If you're in the position to lease a connection to an internet exchange, you've got tons of options for transit from there. And leasing fiber is generally a matter of location and cost, not content; I don't know if it's strictly common carrier, but it might be.

dspillett 6y ago

On a single someone else's land then? Going multi-platform from the start is probably not the way to go as you are adding complication before you have the basics rounded out, but once you are spending that much on advertising you presumably have a sizable turn-over and should have long ago looked at diversifying to deal with situations like this which (even if temporary) could kill the business model. Of course if FB is truly the only game in town for your target audience, you have a problem there...

dkdk8283 6y ago

Aren’t countries a business?

rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y ago

Funnily enough, I worked for a company that sold software to casinos, many of which very much exist on sovereign tribal land, where they're often the single major business entity. It led to some quirkiness: we had to disavow ourselves of almost all cloud services. They wanted all the software and data on-prem because they didn't want anything on U.S. soil.

alisonkisk 6y ago

You don't have to be sovereign to own land. I own land.

kube-system 6y ago

Well, at least not currently. The East India Company didn't worry about building their business on other people's land. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_rule_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_rule_in_India There are a couple authoritarian states that have fully-owned state enterprises that people might also argue are one-in-the-same.