4 ms·

That doesn’t describe even the most down on their luck FAANG engineer in the slightest, and the previous comment tried to make that obvious by defining two enti

That doesn’t describe even the most down on their luck FAANG engineer in the slightest, and the previous comment tried to make that obvious by defining two entirely separate sorts of employer relationships to consider. That you didn’t address the second type of relationship, specifically brought your nationality in, and ended by calling their nation a depressing dystopia brings this dangerously close into nationalist flamebait territory.

cced 6y ago
It may not be typical of employees at FAANG companies but what OP mentions is far from unimaginable for many other non FAANG companies.
- xyzelement 6y ago
  OK but we're talking specifically about Google so the non-FAANG is irrelevant. The whole point is the detrimental effect this will have on quality of life at a FAANG.
ruph123 6y ago
My point is: No publicly traded company goes “above and beyond” for their employees. They literally work for the interest of their shareholders. Individual workers’ rights do not matter for them. And a high salary is not everything, especially since “high” in the SV is still pretty average at best. I now know of several high skilled engineers who worked at Apple and Facebook who came back because they were burned out and in two cases could not even afford their family anymore in the bay area (with both couples working as engineers). Your employer is not your friend who was kindly enough to take you in and spread your wings. And my point of bringing in Germany was this: The US labour laws are laughable, thus to make conditions better for workers they __have__ to unionize to put themselves in a stronger position. I did not address the second type because I think it is a false equivalence. There is never a balance between worker and employer. FAANG companies are the richest and most influential companies in the world, if you think that a union will topple this power distribution, you are really naive.
- xyzelement 6y ago
  The experience of people you know flies directly in the face of my experience (not at FAANGs but similar caliber) and that of several hundreds of my friends and acquaintances who work at these companies. Whatever the exceptions are, if you work at these places, you're living a GREAT life in the grand scheme of things. Conversations about other employers not relevant.
  - Apocryphon 6y ago
    Ask employees at Amazon, certain orgs at Apple, and Microsoft (at least pre-Nadella) how this always holds up. Ask workers at AAA gaming studios. It seems like in tech in exchange for high material compensation, the toll is sometimes high psychological and emotional pressure.
    - xyzelement 6y ago
      >> It seems like in tech in exchange for high material compensation, the toll is sometimes high psychological and emotional pressure. Hard things are hard. Building something complex in a competitive environment is going to feel difficult because it is. The company can make it more or less painful and the good ones do a good job, but there's no way around it. The alternative is not to do difficult things and thus have no pressure and no responsibility. By that definition, the homeless guy on the corner is the most relaxed person (and sometimes it's true, you see them chilled out, nobody depends on them and there's nothing for them to achieve) but if that resonates with you then you shouldn't be working at a company like that in the first place. Try working at the DMV instead - I am being a bit facetious but also serious, people chose their careers based in part of how much pressure/adventure/challenge they have an appetite for. There's no success without risk, hard work and pressure. The top companies give you a chance to go for such success, they can't change the laws of gravity and somehow enable you to change the world without breaking a sweat.
      - Apocryphon 6y ago
        > The company can make it more or less painful and the good ones do a good job, but there's no way around it. Sure there is. There are corporate cultures that are needlessly toxic and abusive. Stack ranking at Microsoft was not necessary to their success. Uber's culture of harassment and unethical behavior was not necessary to their success. Amazon's burnout culture is not necessary to their success. AAA gaming death marches are not necessary to their success- or maybe it is to that industry, but they could at least pay overtime. Perhaps there are other companies that are better candidates for unionization than Google. But to pretend that every successful company's excesses and dark underbellies can be justified by "hard things are hard" is to excuse abuses and unprofessionalism that go unchecked. Because HR systems are insufficient, workers organize.

cced 6y ago

It may not be typical of employees at FAANG companies but what OP mentions is far from unimaginable for many other non FAANG companies.

xyzelement 6y ago
OK but we're talking specifically about Google so the non-FAANG is irrelevant. The whole point is the detrimental effect this will have on quality of life at a FAANG.

ruph123 6y ago

My point is: No publicly traded company goes “above and beyond” for their employees. They literally work for the interest of their shareholders. Individual workers’ rights do not matter for them. And a high salary is not everything, especially since “high” in the SV is still pretty average at best. I now know of several high skilled engineers who worked at Apple and Facebook who came back because they were burned out and in two cases could not even afford their family anymore in the bay area (with both couples working as engineers). Your employer is not your friend who was kindly enough to take you in and spread your wings. And my point of bringing in Germany was this: The US labour laws are laughable, thus to make conditions better for workers they __have__ to unionize to put themselves in a stronger position. I did not address the second type because I think it is a false equivalence. There is never a balance between worker and employer. FAANG companies are the richest and most influential companies in the world, if you think that a union will topple this power distribution, you are really naive.

xyzelement 6y ago
The experience of people you know flies directly in the face of my experience (not at FAANGs but similar caliber) and that of several hundreds of my friends and acquaintances who work at these companies. Whatever the exceptions are, if you work at these places, you're living a GREAT life in the grand scheme of things. Conversations about other employers not relevant.
- Apocryphon 6y ago
  Ask employees at Amazon, certain orgs at Apple, and Microsoft (at least pre-Nadella) how this always holds up. Ask workers at AAA gaming studios. It seems like in tech in exchange for high material compensation, the toll is sometimes high psychological and emotional pressure.
  - xyzelement 6y ago
    >> It seems like in tech in exchange for high material compensation, the toll is sometimes high psychological and emotional pressure. Hard things are hard. Building something complex in a competitive environment is going to feel difficult because it is. The company can make it more or less painful and the good ones do a good job, but there's no way around it. The alternative is not to do difficult things and thus have no pressure and no responsibility. By that definition, the homeless guy on the corner is the most relaxed person (and sometimes it's true, you see them chilled out, nobody depends on them and there's nothing for them to achieve) but if that resonates with you then you shouldn't be working at a company like that in the first place. Try working at the DMV instead - I am being a bit facetious but also serious, people chose their careers based in part of how much pressure/adventure/challenge they have an appetite for. There's no success without risk, hard work and pressure. The top companies give you a chance to go for such success, they can't change the laws of gravity and somehow enable you to change the world without breaking a sweat.
    - Apocryphon 6y ago
      > The company can make it more or less painful and the good ones do a good job, but there's no way around it. Sure there is. There are corporate cultures that are needlessly toxic and abusive. Stack ranking at Microsoft was not necessary to their success. Uber's culture of harassment and unethical behavior was not necessary to their success. Amazon's burnout culture is not necessary to their success. AAA gaming death marches are not necessary to their success- or maybe it is to that industry, but they could at least pay overtime. Perhaps there are other companies that are better candidates for unionization than Google. But to pretend that every successful company's excesses and dark underbellies can be justified by "hard things are hard" is to excuse abuses and unprofessionalism that go unchecked. Because HR systems are insufficient, workers organize.