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I made this point on HN before but I think it applies here. The world breaks out into two types of employers: those who try to hire outstanding people and go a

I made this point on HN before but I think it applies here. The world breaks out into two types of employers: those who try to hire outstanding people and go above and beyond for them, with the expectation that one of the attributes of these outstanding employees is that they likewise go above and beyond for the company. The alternative is employees who treat their employees like cattle and the employees treat the employer as a slaughterhouse. The first path is much preferable for everyone. The ideal situation (think marriage) is where either partner willingly goes above and beyond for the other. I am not sure the impact of this particular action, but it's movement in the direction of employees asserting they don't want to participate in such a relationship, instead resorting to the more common power struggle rather than a partnership. That's OK but taken to the extreme, there's no reason for them to expect the extraordinary treatment google has given them to continue, either.

ruph123 6y ago
What a naive world view is this to think that a large enough company goes “above and beyond” for their employees... As a German these American work ethics are so weird to me. You are being put on a stick and held over a bon fire and all you do is scream “turn me quicker“! What life is this to work your ass off for a company that demands crazy work hours, that can fire you for any reason with laughable notice period, gives you almost no vacation, no maternity leave and when you get sick, you lose your health insurance and end up on the streets. While the other survivors are celebrating their own luck. Such a depressing dystopia.
- finiteseries 6y ago
  That doesn’t describe even the most down on their luck FAANG engineer in the slightest, and the previous comment tried to make that obvious by defining two entirely separate sorts of employer relationships to consider. That you didn’t address the second type of relationship, specifically brought your nationality in, and ended by calling their nation a depressing dystopia brings this dangerously close into nationalist flamebait territory.
  - cced 6y ago
    It may not be typical of employees at FAANG companies but what OP mentions is far from unimaginable for many other non FAANG companies.
    - xyzelement 6y ago
      OK but we're talking specifically about Google so the non-FAANG is irrelevant. The whole point is the detrimental effect this will have on quality of life at a FAANG.
  - ruph123 6y ago
    My point is: No publicly traded company goes “above and beyond” for their employees. They literally work for the interest of their shareholders. Individual workers’ rights do not matter for them. And a high salary is not everything, especially since “high” in the SV is still pretty average at best. I now know of several high skilled engineers who worked at Apple and Facebook who came back because they were burned out and in two cases could not even afford their family anymore in the bay area (with both couples working as engineers). Your employer is not your friend who was kindly enough to take you in and spread your wings. And my point of bringing in Germany was this: The US labour laws are laughable, thus to make conditions better for workers they __have__ to unionize to put themselves in a stronger position. I did not address the second type because I think it is a false equivalence. There is never a balance between worker and employer. FAANG companies are the richest and most influential companies in the world, if you think that a union will topple this power distribution, you are really naive.
    - xyzelement 6y ago
      The experience of people you know flies directly in the face of my experience (not at FAANGs but similar caliber) and that of several hundreds of my friends and acquaintances who work at these companies. Whatever the exceptions are, if you work at these places, you're living a GREAT life in the grand scheme of things. Conversations about other employers not relevant.
- xyzelement 6y ago
  As the other comment points out, literally none of what you said applies to Google. Your logic is something like this: because someone somewhere is in a bad marriage, everyone including people in great marriages should treat their spouse like an adversary. My point is behaving like this will just ruin great marriages/employment relationships (obviously.) I don't know what you being German and being depressed about dystopias has to do with anything, people who work at FAANGs and that caliber companies are literally some of the most fortunate people on earth. That's why top engineers are way more interested in getting a job there than emigrating to Germany.
6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago
> The first path [one of the attributes of these outstanding employees is that they likewise go above and beyond for the company] is much preferable for everyone. I don’t think this view is as widely held as you might think. Or at least it depends on what you mean by going above and beyond. I want to be paid for a job, which I will do. I will do whatever needs to be done, including things outside my “official” duties, but when that clock hits 40 hours, it’s time to stop working. Maybe that’s going above and beyond or maybe not.

ruph123 6y ago

What a naive world view is this to think that a large enough company goes “above and beyond” for their employees... As a German these American work ethics are so weird to me. You are being put on a stick and held over a bon fire and all you do is scream “turn me quicker“! What life is this to work your ass off for a company that demands crazy work hours, that can fire you for any reason with laughable notice period, gives you almost no vacation, no maternity leave and when you get sick, you lose your health insurance and end up on the streets. While the other survivors are celebrating their own luck. Such a depressing dystopia.

finiteseries 6y ago
That doesn’t describe even the most down on their luck FAANG engineer in the slightest, and the previous comment tried to make that obvious by defining two entirely separate sorts of employer relationships to consider. That you didn’t address the second type of relationship, specifically brought your nationality in, and ended by calling their nation a depressing dystopia brings this dangerously close into nationalist flamebait territory.
- cced 6y ago
  It may not be typical of employees at FAANG companies but what OP mentions is far from unimaginable for many other non FAANG companies.
  - xyzelement 6y ago
    OK but we're talking specifically about Google so the non-FAANG is irrelevant. The whole point is the detrimental effect this will have on quality of life at a FAANG.
- ruph123 6y ago
  My point is: No publicly traded company goes “above and beyond” for their employees. They literally work for the interest of their shareholders. Individual workers’ rights do not matter for them. And a high salary is not everything, especially since “high” in the SV is still pretty average at best. I now know of several high skilled engineers who worked at Apple and Facebook who came back because they were burned out and in two cases could not even afford their family anymore in the bay area (with both couples working as engineers). Your employer is not your friend who was kindly enough to take you in and spread your wings. And my point of bringing in Germany was this: The US labour laws are laughable, thus to make conditions better for workers they __have__ to unionize to put themselves in a stronger position. I did not address the second type because I think it is a false equivalence. There is never a balance between worker and employer. FAANG companies are the richest and most influential companies in the world, if you think that a union will topple this power distribution, you are really naive.
  - xyzelement 6y ago
    The experience of people you know flies directly in the face of my experience (not at FAANGs but similar caliber) and that of several hundreds of my friends and acquaintances who work at these companies. Whatever the exceptions are, if you work at these places, you're living a GREAT life in the grand scheme of things. Conversations about other employers not relevant.
xyzelement 6y ago
As the other comment points out, literally none of what you said applies to Google. Your logic is something like this: because someone somewhere is in a bad marriage, everyone including people in great marriages should treat their spouse like an adversary. My point is behaving like this will just ruin great marriages/employment relationships (obviously.) I don't know what you being German and being depressed about dystopias has to do with anything, people who work at FAANGs and that caliber companies are literally some of the most fortunate people on earth. That's why top engineers are way more interested in getting a job there than emigrating to Germany.

6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago

> The first path [one of the attributes of these outstanding employees is that they likewise go above and beyond for the company] is much preferable for everyone. I don’t think this view is as widely held as you might think. Or at least it depends on what you mean by going above and beyond. I want to be paid for a job, which I will do. I will do whatever needs to be done, including things outside my “official” duties, but when that clock hits 40 hours, it’s time to stop working. Maybe that’s going above and beyond or maybe not.