6 ms·

Here in Germany unions (in tech) will for example make sure that older employees can't be fired, so the younger employees will be fired instead. So I don't thin

Here in Germany unions (in tech) will for example make sure that older employees can't be fired, so the younger employees will be fired instead. So I don't think you can simply claim they are beneficial for everybody.

throwaway2245 6y ago
Boomers often have a major advantage in democratised situations, simply because there are more of them. As such, it's still in your own interest to join a union and be represented. And, with Boomers retiring, this power imbalance in unions can be lessened or reversed.
- missedthecue 6y ago
  There are not more boomers than other demographics. Why would you say this?
  - thatfunkymunki 6y ago
    There are more boomers in power than other demographics
  - throwaway2245 6y ago
    Why do you think they are called "boomers"? There was a population boom.
    - missedthecue 6y ago
      That's great, but the millennial generation had more births, and given all the deaths that the boomer gen has had since 1946, millennials are a much larger block at this point.
- PragmaticPulp 6y ago
  In tech, there are more people with degrees than old people. It’s basic math of an expanding industry. It’s definitely not the case that there are more “boomer” software engineers than younger engineers. One look at charts of CS degrees issued by year will clearly show why.
PragmaticPulp 6y ago
This is the detail that most people miss: Unions don’t protect the general public against a company. They protect the ranking members of a company. That means the union also protects members of the company from the general public who might be looking to take their job by offering to work harder or better or cheaper. If you’re a young person getting started in this industry it might be fun to imagine working in a unionized environment, but remember that the union would be working to protect its members from you breaking into the company and entering the senior ranks.
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  Is that why in Ford's recent deal struck with UAW, one of the sticking points for UAW was that there be a "Guaranteed path to permanent full-time employment for temporary employees"? That would seem to be entirely contrary to the idea that union's goal is to make it harder for people to join these companies.
- kanbara 6y ago
  Um... in germany works councils don't get rid of young people because they want to protect their senior ranks. First: it's really hard to get fired in germany, almost impossible. Second: they help formulate who gets laid off when, when there are layoffs, and prioritise people who can and will find a job more easily. So young people and people without families. This is because older people are more vulnerable to discrimination. This is what a society does to protect each other and to use power against a company because the employer-employee relationship is adversarial. Unions don't exist to protect the brass, i don't even know what you're on about
  - tempuser189 6y ago
    First: that's awful because it means business don't have any flexibility to change. you're forced to work with people who don't work, because they can't get fired. The lower productivity of those workers becomes a drag on everyone else. Second: this is the worst. Instead of shedding the dead weight it insists on protecting the people who've been paying dues the longest, at the expense of young people. No this is not what I call a just society. A just society is one where people doing more work get more pay. This exists fine right now. Workers have tons of companies to choose from. Companies have lots of workers to choose from. There's a vibrant market and most people end up getting paid what they're worth.
pydry 6y ago
Divide and conquer - pitting one group against another - is a pretty standard union busting tactic. Since unionization is essentially a fight for power with management and fights are, well, confrontational, its kind of a given that there will be casualties and fallout. Whether that's worse than yielding all collective power to management depends on many variables, including how confrontational and revenge oriented management tends to be.
anoncake 6y ago
> Here in Germany unions (in tech) will for example make sure that older employees can't be fired, so the younger employees will be fired instead. That's the law actually, IIRC. It also protects people with children.
8note 6y ago
Do younger employees pay less in Union dues as a result?
- adtac 6y ago
  it's usually a percentage of your income, so indirectly yes
Udo_Schmitz 6y ago
You are misinformed, in Germany/EU there is legal protection against age discrimination.[1] You don’t need to be a member of a union or even have any union representation at the company. [1]https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kündigungsschutz#Kündigungsschutz_und_AGG https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kündigungsschutz#Kündigungssch...

throwaway2245 6y ago

Boomers often have a major advantage in democratised situations, simply because there are more of them. As such, it's still in your own interest to join a union and be represented. And, with Boomers retiring, this power imbalance in unions can be lessened or reversed.

missedthecue 6y ago
There are not more boomers than other demographics. Why would you say this?
- thatfunkymunki 6y ago
  There are more boomers in power than other demographics
- throwaway2245 6y ago
  Why do you think they are called "boomers"? There was a population boom.
  - missedthecue 6y ago
    That's great, but the millennial generation had more births, and given all the deaths that the boomer gen has had since 1946, millennials are a much larger block at this point.
PragmaticPulp 6y ago
In tech, there are more people with degrees than old people. It’s basic math of an expanding industry. It’s definitely not the case that there are more “boomer” software engineers than younger engineers. One look at charts of CS degrees issued by year will clearly show why.

PragmaticPulp 6y ago

This is the detail that most people miss: Unions don’t protect the general public against a company. They protect the ranking members of a company. That means the union also protects members of the company from the general public who might be looking to take their job by offering to work harder or better or cheaper. If you’re a young person getting started in this industry it might be fun to imagine working in a unionized environment, but remember that the union would be working to protect its members from you breaking into the company and entering the senior ranks.

whimsicalism 6y ago
Is that why in Ford's recent deal struck with UAW, one of the sticking points for UAW was that there be a "Guaranteed path to permanent full-time employment for temporary employees"? That would seem to be entirely contrary to the idea that union's goal is to make it harder for people to join these companies.
kanbara 6y ago
Um... in germany works councils don't get rid of young people because they want to protect their senior ranks. First: it's really hard to get fired in germany, almost impossible. Second: they help formulate who gets laid off when, when there are layoffs, and prioritise people who can and will find a job more easily. So young people and people without families. This is because older people are more vulnerable to discrimination. This is what a society does to protect each other and to use power against a company because the employer-employee relationship is adversarial. Unions don't exist to protect the brass, i don't even know what you're on about
- tempuser189 6y ago
  First: that's awful because it means business don't have any flexibility to change. you're forced to work with people who don't work, because they can't get fired. The lower productivity of those workers becomes a drag on everyone else. Second: this is the worst. Instead of shedding the dead weight it insists on protecting the people who've been paying dues the longest, at the expense of young people. No this is not what I call a just society. A just society is one where people doing more work get more pay. This exists fine right now. Workers have tons of companies to choose from. Companies have lots of workers to choose from. There's a vibrant market and most people end up getting paid what they're worth.

pydry 6y ago

Divide and conquer - pitting one group against another - is a pretty standard union busting tactic. Since unionization is essentially a fight for power with management and fights are, well, confrontational, its kind of a given that there will be casualties and fallout. Whether that's worse than yielding all collective power to management depends on many variables, including how confrontational and revenge oriented management tends to be.

anoncake 6y ago

> Here in Germany unions (in tech) will for example make sure that older employees can't be fired, so the younger employees will be fired instead. That's the law actually, IIRC. It also protects people with children.

8note 6y ago

Do younger employees pay less in Union dues as a result?

adtac 6y ago
it's usually a percentage of your income, so indirectly yes

Udo_Schmitz 6y ago

You are misinformed, in Germany/EU there is legal protection against age discrimination.[1] You don’t need to be a member of a union or even have any union representation at the company. [1]https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kündigungsschutz#Kündigungsschutz_und_AGG https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kündigungsschutz#Kündigungssch...