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Have you lived in China? CCP membership means nothing. There are dozens, if not hundreds of government officials and corporate identities in prison (or worse, e

Have you lived in China? CCP membership means nothing. There are dozens, if not hundreds of government officials and corporate identities in prison (or worse, executed) who were party members. Global perceptions about Ant Financial are completely irrelevant to Jack Ma. This is all internal politics. Anyone who poses a potential threat to the party (read: Xi Jinping) is liable to disappear (even if only temporarily).

FooBarWidget 6y ago
> CCP membership means nothing. I know. But that's not the point. Not that long ago people were speculating all over the place that Jack Ma's CCP membership means that Ant is a wholly state-controlled company and a national security threat. The 180 degree turn of all the comments, shows that at the end of the day, people don't actually know anything about China, and therefore we should be critical of speculations.
- someperson 6y ago
  Regardless of Jack Ma's CCP membership, any major firm in China has close ties to the government at every level of the organization (including the officially embedded Chinese Communist Party cell). The recent Jack Ma + Ant kerfuffle started after he gave a public speech that was mildly critical of the CCP's financial regulation. He probably should have known better given the current political environment in China, but alas.
  - rtx 6y ago
    He knows better, we would never know what pushed him to say that.
    - ladyanita22 6y ago
      He clearly doesn't.
- simonh 6y ago
  That leaves us with a conundrum since the dealings of the ruling class in China are almost completely opaque. Speculation is often all we have, so yes of course we need to be judicious in what we believe, but we also need to keep open minds. Since there are many factions within the upper echelons of the CCP, many of these speculations may not even be contradictory. It's quite plausible that Ant group was planned as a stalking horse for Chinese state infiltration of foreign banking systems, and also that Jack Ma and Ant were seen as conflicting with power groups within the CCP who eventually took them down.
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    It is far more plausible that people are just deliberately looking for reasons to fit a 'CCP bad' narrative. X happens: "CCP is bad" Opposite of X happens: "CCP is bad" What is this, a children's story? Where is all the nuance? Reality can't be reduced to a simple "X is bad" narrative. This narrative overshadows the actual issues, and thus produces nonsense. Note that nearly nobody talks about the ACTUAL financial issue, which is that Ant's way of dealing with money is very dangerous and has the potential to cause a financial crisis. Yes I know the regulator's timing is suspicious. But to completely ignore the actual issue, or to casually brush it away as an illegitimate distraction, and instead to focus 100% on just the 'CCP bad' narrative, is just sensationalism, stereotyping and oversimplification.
    - MichaelZuo 6y ago
      You’ve hit on the fundamental problem of intellectual discussion. It’s impossible to competently discuss entities more sophisticated than oneself, by definition. If one comprehends all the competing and confounding factors involved in the actions of the CCP, for example, then they would at least be as sophisticated as the CCP, by definition. If not, then sooner or later reality intrudes. Of course it may be that no human is intelligent enough to actually comprehend all the dynamics within an organization of 100+ million. Therefore no one on this planet, even in China, fully understands all the factions, factors, reasonings, etc., of such an organization. And actions may happen for mysterious reasons because no one fully comprehends all the underlying reasons.
- enaaem 6y ago
  The disappearance of Jack Ma only confirms that all big Chinese corporations are an extension of the party. You don't follow the party line, you disappear.

FooBarWidget 6y ago

> CCP membership means nothing. I know. But that's not the point. Not that long ago people were speculating all over the place that Jack Ma's CCP membership means that Ant is a wholly state-controlled company and a national security threat. The 180 degree turn of all the comments, shows that at the end of the day, people don't actually know anything about China, and therefore we should be critical of speculations.

someperson 6y ago
Regardless of Jack Ma's CCP membership, any major firm in China has close ties to the government at every level of the organization (including the officially embedded Chinese Communist Party cell). The recent Jack Ma + Ant kerfuffle started after he gave a public speech that was mildly critical of the CCP's financial regulation. He probably should have known better given the current political environment in China, but alas.
- rtx 6y ago
  He knows better, we would never know what pushed him to say that.
  - ladyanita22 6y ago
    He clearly doesn't.
simonh 6y ago
That leaves us with a conundrum since the dealings of the ruling class in China are almost completely opaque. Speculation is often all we have, so yes of course we need to be judicious in what we believe, but we also need to keep open minds. Since there are many factions within the upper echelons of the CCP, many of these speculations may not even be contradictory. It's quite plausible that Ant group was planned as a stalking horse for Chinese state infiltration of foreign banking systems, and also that Jack Ma and Ant were seen as conflicting with power groups within the CCP who eventually took them down.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  It is far more plausible that people are just deliberately looking for reasons to fit a 'CCP bad' narrative. X happens: "CCP is bad" Opposite of X happens: "CCP is bad" What is this, a children's story? Where is all the nuance? Reality can't be reduced to a simple "X is bad" narrative. This narrative overshadows the actual issues, and thus produces nonsense. Note that nearly nobody talks about the ACTUAL financial issue, which is that Ant's way of dealing with money is very dangerous and has the potential to cause a financial crisis. Yes I know the regulator's timing is suspicious. But to completely ignore the actual issue, or to casually brush it away as an illegitimate distraction, and instead to focus 100% on just the 'CCP bad' narrative, is just sensationalism, stereotyping and oversimplification.
  - MichaelZuo 6y ago
    You’ve hit on the fundamental problem of intellectual discussion. It’s impossible to competently discuss entities more sophisticated than oneself, by definition. If one comprehends all the competing and confounding factors involved in the actions of the CCP, for example, then they would at least be as sophisticated as the CCP, by definition. If not, then sooner or later reality intrudes. Of course it may be that no human is intelligent enough to actually comprehend all the dynamics within an organization of 100+ million. Therefore no one on this planet, even in China, fully understands all the factions, factors, reasonings, etc., of such an organization. And actions may happen for mysterious reasons because no one fully comprehends all the underlying reasons.
enaaem 6y ago
The disappearance of Jack Ma only confirms that all big Chinese corporations are an extension of the party. You don't follow the party line, you disappear.